Faith and "miracles" - read the comments section!

[oldfella1962]

Back in the day (decades ago) I offered locals in Alabama a way to "debunk" a possible "angel feather" miracle and was griped at for attacking their "faith".
But if you think you are experiencing a miracle, wouldn't you invite logical outside-your-circle examination into your claim? Wouldn't you want to know whether you are either mistaken or that God really is demonstrating his supernatural divine power? My personal opinions here:

You (the miracle witnesser) really want to believe in "belief". At this point I wouldn't call it believing in "faith" because the Biblical definition of faith is hope in what is unseen. In the miracle scenario you have indeed just "seen", and your belief in miracles is now validated. In other words, you are on a religious bender, and you don't want anyone to make you sober up. IMHO whether consciously or not, you are placing more importance on your personal beliefs than on the cold, hard truth.

I totally understand that nobody wants their beliefs (in any area of their life) questioned because they take it as a personal attack. But using the best methods available to rationally probe for possible alternate explanations for what you perceive as proof of a legit Godly "miracle" should be expected.

Perhaps some people don't want their religious beliefs to be lumped in with UFO's, Bigfoot, ghosts/hauntings and other phenomena that have no hard evidence to support them. Regardless, read the comments section to get some reactions to having miracles examined and explained AKA "debunked."

Four Debunked Religious "Miracles" | RealClearScience

 

[tell sackett]

Does God still do miracles? Yes, absolutely. Does Satan counterfeit miracles? Yes, absolutely.

 

[oldfella1962]

Does God still do miracles? Yes, absolutely. Does Satan counterfeit miracles? Yes, absolutely.

Can you give specific examples of modern miracles - whether God-made or Satan-made - that have not turned out to have likely explanations from natural causes?
I don't have time to research more than my original four in my linked article right now because I'm off to the vet for my dog's appointment.

 

[tell sackett]

I see one every day. ?

 

[j_seph]

Can you give specific examples of modern miracles - whether God-made or Satan-made - that have not turned out to have likely explanations from natural causes?
I don't have time to research more than my original four in my linked article right now because I'm off to the vet for my dog's appointment.

I can tell of a lady who had grade 3 diastolic heart failure, whose doctor told her she would live with this and battle this the rest of her life with medication. I can tell of her doctor that said this does not happen, who asked what had changed and the only change was prayer specifically when the lady asked in faith if she could just touch the hem of his garment that she knew she would be cured one Sunday morning in prayer at an alter. The same doctor who said, I have never seen this happen and I have to take heart failure off your medical records. That morning when my wife prayed, she came back sat down beside me and said I am healed!

 

[bullethead]

https://www.isaandislam.com/testimonies/isa-healed-a-paralyzed-muslim-girl/

 

[oldfella1962]

I see one every day. ?

I could say that too, just in the fact that I wake up alive every morning. I am grateful for it but considering that billions of people do this every day, I can't say that it's really a miracle.

 

[oldfella1962]

I can tell of a lady who had grade 3 diastolic heart failure, whose doctor told her she would live with this and battle this the rest of her life with medication. I can tell of her doctor that said this does not happen, who asked what had changed and the only change was prayer specifically when the lady asked in faith if she could just touch the hem of his garment that she knew she would be cured one Sunday morning in prayer at an alter. The same doctor who said, I have never seen this happen and I have to take heart failure off your medical records. That morning when my wife prayed, she came back sat down beside me and said I am healed!

Not saying that didn't happen exactly as you said it did, but to consider it a legit miracle (by this I mean there couldn't be any rational explanations for your wife's recovery) I would need a few medical experts to weigh in on the situation.

Regardless I had a little trouble following your story. She was taking medication for grade 3 diastolic heart failure, touched the hem of his garment (whose garment? She literally touched a preacher's garment while in church? Is this a figure of speech? Sorry but I'm unclear here) and the doctor was in the same church? Then she came home and said she was healed, and does not take medication any longer?

 

[j_seph]

Not saying that didn't happen exactly as you said it did, but to consider it a legit miracle (by this I mean there couldn't be any rational explanations for your wife's recovery) I would need a few medical experts to weigh in on the situation.

Regardless I had a little trouble following your story. She was taking medication for grade 3 diastolic heart failure, touched the hem of his garment (whose garment? She literally touched a preacher's garment while in church? Is this a figure of speech? Sorry but I'm unclear here) and the doctor was in the same church? Then she came home and said she was healed, and does not take medication any longer?

She was diagnosed with this, after EKG's, Heart Cath, the whole 9 yards. She was put on medication, as well as told she could regress to a stage 2 or go to stage 4. Regardless of what she did she would have to be on some medication for the rest of her life for this.
One Sunday morning she went to the Alter at church to pray. Her prayer was just as the lady did in Matthew 9: 20-22. When she came back to sit down she looked at me and said, " I am healed".
Her next Dr appointment, the doctor could not explain why she was doing better. Which was why he asked what she was doing different and the only thing different was praying specifically.
The next appointment after that was all of the heart test again. The doctor came back in and said he could not explain how or why, just that THIS doesn't happen. Then added that this had to come off her records cause it does not exist any longer and he could not explain.
My wife went from being completely out of breathe walking 40 yards to the mailbox and back at the age of 47, to not long after her claiming her healing that we did a 15 mile hike.
Not sure if the DR even goes to church, first time we mentioned prayer, all he could say was keep doing it. Second time we mentioned prayer when he had no answer his reply was , well no has proven God is not real

 

[oldfella1962]

She was diagnosed with this, after EKG's, Heart Cath, the whole 9 yards. She was put on medication, as well as told she could regress to a stage 2 or go to stage 4. Regardless of what she did she would have to be on some medication for the rest of her life for this.
One Sunday morning she went to the Alter at church to pray. Her prayer was just as the lady did in Matthew 9: 20-22. When she came back to sit down she looked at me and said, " I am healed".
Her next Dr appointment, the doctor could not explain why she was doing better. Which was why he asked what she was doing different and the only thing different was praying specifically.
The next appointment after that was all of the heart test again. The doctor came back in and said he could not explain how or why, just that THIS doesn't happen. Then added that this had to come off her records cause it does not exist any longer and he could not explain.
My wife went from being completely out of breathe walking 40 yards to the mailbox and back at the age of 47, to not long after her claiming her healing that we did a 15 mile hike.
Not sure if the DR even goes to church, first time we mentioned prayer, all he could say was keep doing it. Second time we mentioned prayer when he had no answer his reply was , well no has proven God is not real

Oh I see. Glad she is doing better!

 

[oldfella1962]

https://www.isaandislam.com/testimonies/isa-healed-a-paralyzed-muslim-girl/

It's a Jesus/Islam miracle mashup! I must say it's the first time I've ever heard of that happening.

 

[oldfella1962]

And now a "miracle" without a Hollywood ending. I mentioned this before, but my mother-in-law recently took her own life. That's not the miracle, just giving you some background on the situation.

My mother-in-law had cataracts and other vision problems for quite a few years before her untimely death. She had glasses and took medication or whatever, but she was hit-or-miss on doing what the doctor says about any medical condition. So gradually her eyesight was getting worse, which of course affected her driving in the CRAZY Phoenix AZ area traffic. But her husband did most of the running around/errands/etc. so she limited her time on the road.

Her husband got dementia, so eventually my MIL had to do all the driving. Her family was concerned about this, but she said "Jesus cured me! My eyesight is better now. My cataracts are gone!" Of course she never actually went back to any eye doctor to get her eyes checked out. But she said her eyesight was good as ever now.

Her husband passed away from dementia/Alzheimers related causes and she started to go downhill psychologically, and she was talking about death all the time and how great it would be to "be with Jesus and my husband". This whole time her family was concerned not just for her mental health but for her continued driving. She sometimes got her daughter (my wife's sister who lived nearby her mother) or a neighbor or church member to drive her around, but normally she risked it and drove herself. Mix declining vision with reduced decision-making ability from mental health issues and blowing off taking her other medications for diabetes and whatnot, and you have a problem on your hands!

Sure enough, one day she got into a bad wreck involving several vehicles and running from the police, then crashing her car into her own garage door with the police in pursuit. Yes, she really "stepped in it" this time. Her wreck might have caused a mental breakdown (hence running from the cops in a panic) since she took her meds erratically, but her Mister Magoo eyesight was no doubt a factor.

She was also HEAVILY in debt with several credit cards maxed out and still owing on her house, having to get her car & garage door and who knows what damage to the other cars, and whatnot. And no doubt when she went to her upcoming hearing the judge would request a mental health/wellness exam and likely test her eyesight too. The eye doctors would find out that Jesus did not fix her eyesight, making the odds of her ever getting her driver's license back very low. She would likely be put into a group home against her wishes for her own good, and never legally drive again, thus her independence would be gone.

She felt overwhelmed and killed herself before her court date. Could she have lived with her daughter who lived nearby? They already had three people crammed into a small apartment. Regardless her daughter (my wife's sister) died suddenly a couple of months later anyway, so moving in with her (had it even been an option) would probably just delay the inevitable fact of my MIL feeling overwhelmed and killing herself.

 

[bullethead]

It's a Jesus/Islam miracle mashup! I must say it's the first time I've ever heard of that happening.

Pick a religion and you'll find similar testimonials.

 

[Spotlite]

Can you give specific examples of modern miracles - whether God-made or Satan-made - that have not turned out to have likely explanations from natural causes?
I don't have time to research more than my original four in my linked article right now because I'm off to the vet for my dog's appointment.

I can tell you sone stuff, but………..you wouldn’t believe it

 

[oldfella1962]

I can tell you sone stuff, but………..you wouldn’t believe it

And if offered possible explanations you wouldn't believe them!

 

[oldfella1962]

Pick a religion and you'll find similar testimonials.

Rastafarians? Because smoking all that weed might inspire all kinds of crazy things!

 

[bullethead]

Rastafarians? Because smoking all that weed might inspire all kinds of crazy things!

They got their Voodoo to elicit all types of MOJO.

 

[Spotlite]

And if offered possible explanations you wouldn't believe them!

Ha true but not 100% true. I’d just say you’re out of context

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I could say that too, just in the fact that I wake up alive every morning. I am grateful for it but considering that billions of people do this every day, I can't say that it's really a miracle.

Does the fact that billions of people wake up every day prove its not a miracle? Only if your starting point is similar to Bart Ehrman’s paraphrasing now ‘miracles are the very least likely explanation because they are “by definition-rare”. But THATS Ehrman’s definition and it’s his way of gaming the discussion. I can win any argument if you let me write the definitions of the words I use. But what if we reject Ehrman’s personal definition and substitute instead that miracles are constantly happening to us and around us and therefore a most common explanation. If we accept that definition then your example of you along with millions of others waking up every day fits perfectly and is proof that miracles are so common we take them for granted to the pint we don’t even notice them.

 

[oldfella1962]

Putting Bart Ehrman's definitions aside, I will offer my own definition: a miracle is any very rare occurrence that greatly exceeds the laws of chance and after very close examination has no natural or scientific explanation that would be accepted by a panel of unbiased experts in the areas of expertise required to research the areas affected by and involved in the claimed miracle.

For example, if an amputee grew a limb back over the course of a month and a team of doctors produced data showing daily limb measurements, photographs and videos of the limb growth (examined by software & video experts) x-rays of the growing limb and the fully regrown limb, took & passed polygraph tests and psychiatric tests,
and signed witness statements under penalty of losing their medical license if they lie concerning their involvement in the limb regrowth incident, I would then say you have a legit miracle.

"Miraculous events" in the bible that are blatantly the result of supernatural forces that would cause catastrophic damage to the planet and violate the laws of known science I dismiss outright as false.

For example, when God kept the sun in the sky longer - to give Joshua more daylight to continue his successful battle over the Canaanites we have a complete falsehood. Since the earth is in orbit around the sun (and not the other way around as was thought in bible times) and spins, - this gives us daylight or night depending on our geographical location. The earth spins at about 1,000 MPH which makes sense if our planet's circumference is about 24,000 miles and a day lasts 24 hours. The earth would have to stop spinning to achieve more daylight at any given location. If you google it, you can find out what would happen if our rotation speed went from 1,000 MPH to zero MPH - it's not pretty and would destroy all civilization as we know it. If the "sun not setting" miracle took place say 2800 years ago, then no structure/cities/civilization on the planet could be older than that, because everything would have been turned to rubble and many millions of people killed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the planet didn't hit the reset button 2800 years ago. If you want to believe that, I respect your belief. If you want to believe that the earth is the center of the universe and the sun is just a light in the sky over the earth, I respect your belief. IMHO the story is fiction made up by very normal bronze age humans.