God’s Got This

[Waddams]

Need to leave work. Been listening in on a conference call all day, enjoyed the discussion. Off to home and decide if we're going to embark on a home remodel job with the economy crumbling right now.

 

[WaltL1]

I don't actually see it as in poor taste, and harsh though it is, I'm glad you asked because it's deserving of discussion. There are aspects of this subject matter that are actually very harsh.

Little bloating, waterlogged baby bodies, unborn fetuses - etc. It shows we are subject to the pitfalls of fallen existence from the instant of conception. Miscarried babies, 6 month olds that die from diarrhea in Trump's "3rd world ****hole countries", etc. For our entire existence in this life - we are in peril and at risk. It can happen by our embryo not implanting right, our mother's womb not working right, or being aborted, or while still helpless as an infant any number of things that can happen.

This exact subject - that basically of innocents that didn't get the chance at the receiving the Grace offered by Christ - is where my thinking on the 2nd Resurrection being a chance for redemption through works originated from. It's different than what's offered now via grace (1st resurrection). I don't believe that the Saints in the 1st Resurrection will be just living in paradise on Earth with nothing to do but be free. The 1000 year kingdom, I suspect, will be a time of preparation. I wonder if those in the 1st Resurrection will be working to prepare for the 2nd Resurrection and be ready to do a part in saving the rest of humanity. I wonder if they will have the chance at redemption via works after their resurrection to physical life. Like I said before, I have to think in that scenario, the only people that will reject God's offer will be the truly wicked.

With all due respect, 2nd resurrection or 1st or any number of other ways a baby can die etc etc...…. is just avoiding or is just distracting one's self from picturing the atrocious act that the God they worship is responsible for.
Ever seen a bloated, waterlogged body up close and personal? I have and it aint a pretty sight.
Worship the god/person/whatever that was intentionally responsible for it? Especially innocent children?
Not me. I'll burn in he11 first. And I'll smile in satisfaction inbetween my screams.

 

[bullethead]

God the Father is a creator. It's what He does. As for what else was in His mind motivating it, I don't know. He's not accountable to us, He doesn't explain it to us. Part of my faith is accepting that. I believe He did create us and that's what matters to me.

As He's outside of time, the beginning and the end, He knows what we will do because He's already seen it. Within the framework of our existence, we still have free will, and we reap what we sow with that free will.

As for killing people for doing as designed - I would ask you to consider maybe they weren't doing as designed. Though fallen, we still have free will and know good from evil. We were designed for better, and though fallen, we still can make choices to act better than our fallen nature does to us.

And again - sacrifice of Jesus was to change us and redeem us through resurrection. It wasn't to change us in this life.

Our free will makes us 100% responsible for the fallout of our actions, including the actions that led to the Fall the consequences that have dogged us every since.



People abort babies. God doesn't cause it. He allows it, though, because it's part of the nature of being in a fallen existence. And he will address and fix it via the 1st and 2nd resurrections.

And yes, God killed the wicked in the flood. And they'll be resurrected to judgement. He did it to show the example that He's going to "wash away" sin, it won't be allowed to persist eternally.

Im not too sure that you are reading your own writings.
If God granted us free will and then punishes us for using it what type of God is that?
According to the stories in the bible god killed everyone and everything in the flood except what was on the boat. Is it possible that you have to tell yourself innocent children, babies, slow of mind, animals and fish were "wicked" in order to overlook it?
If not, can you explain how they were wicked?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Go ahead SFD tell me why I dont have the faintest idea why Im correct.
But before you do, remember that the Christian claim is that God is omni-everything.

Yeah, I'm kinda aware of that one. You're an intelligent man Walt. You could figure it out if you cared to, but I'm past the days of trying to convince others of anything.

 

[Spotlite]

Im not too sure that you are reading your own writings.
If God granted us free will and then punishes us for using it what type of God is that?
According to the stories in the bible god killed everyone and everything in the flood except what was on the boat. Is it possible that you have to tell yourself innocent children, babies, slow of mind, animals and fish were "wicked" in order to overlook it?
If not, can you explain how they were wicked?

My Son has free will to use my truck. If he gets a speeding ticket -what kind of Father am I if I don’t punish him?? You’re thinking with a one track mind that’s obviously not ever looked at this objectively without a predetermined mindset.

 

[bullethead]

My Son has free will to use my truck. If he gets a speeding ticket -what kind of Father am I if I don’t punish him?? You’re thinking with a one track mind that’s obviously not ever looked at this objectively without a predetermined mindset.

Its easy to make excuses for a God when you exclude him from the equation.
You don't know what your son will do for certain ahead of time. You cannot punish him before he does it.

I am absolutely not the one thinking with a single track mind.

God drowned approximately 20 million people. Babies, infants, unborn children, mothers, fathers, grandparents, workers, warriors, priests, his own followers, the "baddies" and on and on and on LITERALLY everyone and everything except what was in the boat. Many were innocent and had never done anything so bad nor ever had a chance to do anything so bad as to warrant death.

Did you punish your son for potentially stealing your truck?
Did you punish your son for potentially smoking behind the shed?
Did you kill your son for him potentially becoming a pedophile and rapist?
????? Would you ?????

You equate your fatherly duties to God's decisions and actions with the easy and convenient examples and totally overlook the magnitude of just who and how many your God outright murdered because his experiment didn't go as he planned (but then he wouldn't be god if he planned it wrong). And you not only worship but make excuses for a being who flat out drowned 20 million people for doing what people do NO different than today.

I am learned enough to know there was no worldwide flood or god that did any of it, but I have to make these counterpoints in order to converse with the people who not only believe it happened but try to make excuses for why god is like a human on some things and above humans on others.

 

[bullethead]

My Son has free will to use my truck. If he gets a speeding ticket -what kind of Father am I if I don’t punish him?? You’re thinking with a one track mind that’s obviously not ever looked at this objectively without a predetermined mindset.

In your mind do you truly believe that every single person..unborn to elderly.. (except 8) on the planet was so extremely wicked that death was the only solution? Can you honestly defend a story like that?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

[U]WaltL1 said

Your question and the answer to your question has zero to do with the point that an omni-everything god either cant or wont teach without using pain and suffering in its lesson plan

That's one way to frame it, but it's slighted because it only considers half the equation: that pain and suffering are all the teachers fault. The other half of the reality should be given equal weight and it is this; a non-omni-everything (you and me) can't or won't (as in my case) learn without pain and suffering. The true nature of the relationship takes both a teacher and a WILLING learner.

As it pertains to learning, pain is a great teaching tool, perhaps the best. No one picks up a hot coal on purpose but once. Physical pain lets us know physical damage has occurred, something is askew and dangerous. Emotional pain is exactly the same: spiritual damage has occurred and something is askew and dangerous.

Now to address this in the context of the teacher-student example To consider the teacher as the only one capable of culpability is dishonest. The mature thing that MY conscious requires of me, is to first take an honest assessment of ME, and address any shortcomings I may have as a student before I go looking for fault with the teacher. If I'm experiencing pain(I am the one experiencing it after all), what am I doing, or have done, that would account for it. Did I pick up a hot coal or is it emotional pain? If it's emotional pain, then what is out of order with me spiritually that accounts for it?

If one doesn't believe in God, or has a flawed understanding of God, then there's no answer.....a brick wall. This is where I was at, so I'm speaking from personal experience. What I came to understand was it was that pain and suffering that brought me to God, pushed me THROUGH that disbelief and misunderstanding and led me to know God, not just know ABOUT God.

What did I find? That He's as real AND RELATABLE TO, as you and me. That He loves us all equally and unconditionally. That He uses pain and suffering to not just bring us to Him, but he will take that same pain and suffering and turn it into a blessing for us and others around us.

Now I ask you, WHO would not want their pain and suffering taken away and turned into a blessing beyond their wildest imagination? WHO? I will give you the answer; an obstinate and bitter student, who would rather be dishonest for the sake of their ego and live in bitterness than address their own pain, suffering, and resentment. That's WHO. I wore those shoes for a long time, almost to the end, but thankfully the pain got bad enough that I just couldn't do it any more. I'm eternally grateful for that pain and suffering. It's the best thing that ever happened to me. There's your answer to your "problem" of pain and suffering.

 

[Waddams]

Jesus was here and gone. Said these things will be done in that generation. Not thousands of years later.

What things? It's easy to throw this stuff out in general and try to make a believer start defending, and many will try, but I'm not going to.

Jesus was Jew and nothing in Judaism tells of these future happenings.

That's not true. Daniel's 70th week for one. Plenty in Isaiah. Other's as well.

Jesus does not fulfil the prophecies of the Jewish Messiah.

So the Jew's claim, but they kind of have to or admit their wrong and convert.

Jesus did not set out to have a religion split from Judaism towards him.

No he didn't. But it Isaiah and other scripture predicted it would happen.

He wanted the way Judaism was headed to go back towards old school Torah Judaism.

That's true. Because what was taught was the same thing He was teaching. Love, mercy and submitting to God. The Jewish leaders of his time had gotten the original intent wrong, Jesus was fulfilling prophecy and providing a correction.

With all due respect, 2nd resurrection or 1st or any number of other ways a baby can die etc etc...…. is just avoiding or is just distracting one's self from picturing the atrocious act that the God they worship is responsible for.
Ever seen a bloated, waterlogged body up close and personal? I have and it aint a pretty sight.
Worship the god/person/whatever that was intentionally responsible for it? Especially innocent children?
Not me. I'll burn in he11 first. And I'll smile in satisfaction inbetween my screams.

and

Im not too sure that you are reading your own writings.
If God granted us free will and then punishes us for using it what type of God is that?
According to the stories in the bible god killed everyone and everything in the flood except what was on the boat. Is it possible that you have to tell yourself innocent children, babies, slow of mind, animals and fish were "wicked" in order to overlook it?
If not, can you explain how they were wicked?

There's the general argument that God is Sovereign, gave us life, we belong to Him, and He can take such life away, but there's more beyond that.

One, the flood isn't the only mass killing sanctioned by God. The Hebrew conquest of the Holy Land, he instructed them to kill everyone and everything as well, is an example. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, everyone. It all included innocent babies.

I'm not gonna lie - it's harsh. And it can be hard to understand. In each case, though, God was destroying a society of humans who had grown supremely wicked. The generations passed on their wickedness to the next. Before the flood, humanity at large is recorded as having nothing but escalating wicked thoughts. The Canannites practiced child sacrifice, their destruction was ordered to keep their wickedness out of Hebrew society. The Sodomites and Gomorrahans wanted to rape with Lot's guests. What God did was destroy them all to stop the generational continuation of extreme wickedness, and His decision was based on stopping it expanding in the world, from impacting and hurting others outside those groups he destroyed.

God doesn't "like" doing this. It's recorded He grieved after the Flood. He also commanded the Hebrews to not take Canaanite gold, and to kill the livestock rather than take it. God made sure that they would not benefit from the genocide, He made sure to make the point it was not okay to go find the next group and kill them for all their stuff too.

Again, I do believe all those people, including the innocents will be given justice in the future, and I do believe these events show that God will ultimately destroy wickedness completely. He doesn't do it now because He's giving humanity the chance to repent, just like He gave everyone the chance to repent before the flood, before the Canaanites were destroyed, before Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. There's scripture that specifically says He gave them chance to repent, and they didn't, so He destroyed them and their children to keep them from spreading their wickedness.

You have free will to reject God for whatever reason you decide, that's the nature of free will. I won't argue with you about that.

 

[bullethead]

What things? It's easy to throw this stuff out in general and try to make a believer start defending, and many will try, but I'm not going to.



That's not true. Daniel's 70th week for one. Plenty in Isaiah. Other's as well.



So the Jew's claim, but they kind of have to or admit their wrong and convert.



No he didn't. But it Isaiah and other scripture predicted it would happen.



That's true. Because what was taught was the same thing He was teaching. Love, mercy and submitting to God. The Jewish leaders of his time had gotten the original intent wrong, Jesus was fulfilling prophecy and providing a correction.



and



There's the general argument that God is Sovereign, gave us life, we belong to Him, and He can take such life away, but there's more beyond that.

One, the flood isn't the only mass killing sanctioned by God. The Hebrew conquest of the Holy Land, he instructed them to kill everyone and everything as well, is an example. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, everyone. It all included innocent babies.

I'm not gonna lie - it's harsh. And it can be hard to understand. In each case, though, God was destroying a society of humans who had grown supremely wicked. The generations passed on their wickedness to the next. Before the flood, humanity at large is recorded as having nothing but escalating wicked thoughts. The Canannites practiced child sacrifice, their destruction was ordered to keep their wickedness out of Hebrew society. The Sodomites and Gomorrahans wanted to rape with Lot's guests. What God did was destroy them all to stop the generational continuation of extreme wickedness, and His decision was based on stopping it expanding in the world, from impacting and hurting others outside those groups he destroyed.

God doesn't "like" doing this. It's recorded He grieved after the Flood. He also commanded the Hebrews to not take Canaanite gold, and to kill the livestock rather than take it. God made sure that they would not benefit from the genocide, He made sure to make the point it was not okay to go find the next group and kill them for all their stuff too.

Again, I do believe all those people, including the innocents will be given justice in the future, and I do believe these events show that God will ultimately destroy wickedness completely. He doesn't do it now because He's giving humanity the chance to repent, just like He gave everyone the chance to repent before the flood, before the Canaanites were destroyed, before Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. There's scripture that specifically says He gave them chance to repent, and they didn't, so He destroyed them and their children to keep them from spreading their wickedness.

You have free will to reject God for whatever reason you decide, that's the nature of free will. I won't argue with you about that.

Who recorded that God grieved?
Was someone there?
We have addressed everything you talked about above many times over. I just dont have the time today to go over it all one by one again today.
All I can say is that you have to believe whatever stories you must in order to do your thing in life.
Best of luck.

 

[WaltL1]

That's one way to frame it, but it's slighted because it only considers half the equation: that pain and suffering are all the teachers fault. The other half of the reality should be given equal weight and it is this; a non-omni-everything (you and me) can't or won't (as in my case) learn without pain and suffering. The true nature of the relationship takes both a teacher and a WILLING learner.

As it pertains to learning, pain is a great teaching tool, perhaps the best. No one picks up a hot coal on purpose but once. Physical pain lets us know physical damage has occurred, something is askew and dangerous. Emotional pain is exactly the same: spiritual damage has occurred and something is askew and dangerous.

Now to address this in the context of the teacher-student example To consider the teacher as the only one capable of culpability is dishonest. The mature thing that MY conscious requires of me, is to first take an honest assessment of ME, and address any shortcomings I may have as a student before I go looking for fault with the teacher. If I'm experiencing pain(I am the one experiencing it after all), what am I doing, or have done, that would account for it. Did I pick up a hot coal or is it emotional pain? If it's emotional pain, then what is out of order with me spiritually that accounts for it?

If one doesn't believe in God, or has a flawed understanding of God, then there's no answer.....a brick wall. This is where I was at, so I'm speaking from personal experience. What I came to understand was it was that pain and suffering that brought me to God, pushed me THROUGH that disbelief and misunderstanding and led me to know God, not just know ABOUT God.

What did I find? That He's as real AND RELATABLE TO, as you and me. That He loves us all equally and unconditionally. That He uses pain and suffering to not just bring us to Him, but he will take that same pain and suffering and turn it into a blessing for us and others around us.

Now I ask you, WHO would not want their pain and suffering taken away and turned into a blessing beyond their wildest imagination? WHO? I will give you the answer; an obstinate and bitter student, who would rather be dishonest for the sake of their ego and live in bitterness than address their own pain, suffering, and resentment. That's WHO. I wore those shoes for a long time, almost to the end, but thankfully the pain got bad enough that I just couldn't do it any more. I'm eternally grateful for that pain and suffering. It's the best thing that ever happened to me. There's your answer to your "problem" of pain and suffering.

a non-omni-everything (you and me) can't or won't (as in my case) learn without pain and suffering.

1. With a thought, God could change that. He could make it that every single thing learned through pain and suffering can be learned without pain and suffering.
2. God is said to have created us. When he was figuring out the recipe for us he apparently decided "I think I'll make it so these folks wont learn unless pain and suffering is involved".
3. Im gonna guess that if your child came home with a black eye or if you had to identify their body at the morgue and when you asked what happeed and the response was "The little bugger just refused to learn math"...…. you probably wouldnt worship the teacher or put them up for the Teacher of the Year award.

 

[WaltL1]

What things? It's easy to throw this stuff out in general and try to make a believer start defending, and many will try, but I'm not going to.



That's not true. Daniel's 70th week for one. Plenty in Isaiah. Other's as well.



So the Jew's claim, but they kind of have to or admit their wrong and convert.



No he didn't. But it Isaiah and other scripture predicted it would happen.



That's true. Because what was taught was the same thing He was teaching. Love, mercy and submitting to God. The Jewish leaders of his time had gotten the original intent wrong, Jesus was fulfilling prophecy and providing a correction.



and



There's the general argument that God is Sovereign, gave us life, we belong to Him, and He can take such life away, but there's more beyond that.

One, the flood isn't the only mass killing sanctioned by God. The Hebrew conquest of the Holy Land, he instructed them to kill everyone and everything as well, is an example. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, everyone. It all included innocent babies.

I'm not gonna lie - it's harsh. And it can be hard to understand. In each case, though, God was destroying a society of humans who had grown supremely wicked. The generations passed on their wickedness to the next. Before the flood, humanity at large is recorded as having nothing but escalating wicked thoughts. The Canannites practiced child sacrifice, their destruction was ordered to keep their wickedness out of Hebrew society. The Sodomites and Gomorrahans wanted to rape with Lot's guests. What God did was destroy them all to stop the generational continuation of extreme wickedness, and His decision was based on stopping it expanding in the world, from impacting and hurting others outside those groups he destroyed.

God doesn't "like" doing this. It's recorded He grieved after the Flood. He also commanded the Hebrews to not take Canaanite gold, and to kill the livestock rather than take it. God made sure that they would not benefit from the genocide, He made sure to make the point it was not okay to go find the next group and kill them for all their stuff too.

Again, I do believe all those people, including the innocents will be given justice in the future, and I do believe these events show that God will ultimately destroy wickedness completely. He doesn't do it now because He's giving humanity the chance to repent, just like He gave everyone the chance to repent before the flood, before the Canaanites were destroyed, before Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. There's scripture that specifically says He gave them chance to repent, and they didn't, so He destroyed them and their children to keep them from spreading their wickedness.

You have free will to reject God for whatever reason you decide, that's the nature of free will. I won't argue with you about that.

​

God was destroying a society of humans who had grown supremely wicked

Nope. Those kids, fetuses etc didnt live long enough to become anything.
Even us wicked humans dont do that. We dont kill every Italian because some Italians were La Cosa Nostra.
Please give me another example, here in the "real world" where you find it justifiable to kill the children for the crimes of the parent(s).

 

[WaltL1]

My Son has free will to use my truck. If he gets a speeding ticket -what kind of Father am I if I don’t punish him?? You’re thinking with a one track mind that’s obviously not ever looked at this objectively without a predetermined mindset.

When you say "punish him" for taking your truck, would you kill him for taking it?
Or maybe just take the truck away so he could actually learn something?

 

[WaltL1]

opinion, opinion, opinion. Not here to change those, but as to your problem with pain and suffering...….like I said. It's answered.

They arent opinions.
If what Christianity says about God is true then my "opinions" are also true because they are all based on that.
You dont realize it but by claiming your God is omni-everything those claims create situations you just cant get around other than by stomping your feet and wailing "opinion. opinion, opinion"
But you cant get around it.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

They arent opinions.
If what Christianity says about God is true then my "opinions" are also true because they are all based on that.
You dont realize it but by claiming your God is omni-everything those claims create situations you just cant get around other than by stomping your feet and wailing "opinion. opinion, opinion"
But you cant get around it.

Whatever Walt.

 

[WaltL1]

Whatever Walt.

There is a simple answer SFD -
Instead of arguing the inarguable, just say - "The God I worship is responsible for some things society considers atrocious..... and I'm ok with that".
No easily seen through excuses, no having to defend the indefensible, no denial, no nothing. It just is what is.
And just think, A/As wouldnt have any good argument for that.

 

[Spotlite]

When you say "punish him" for taking your truck, would you kill him for taking it?
Or maybe just take the truck away so he could actually learn something?

Kill him is an extreme analogy for something human to something spiritual.

If this “spiritual” thing exist, our flesh / body isn’t what’s important anyway is it? It’s supposed to be our soul that will spend eternity somewhere that it’s ultimately wanting to salvage?

 

[Spotlite]

In your mind do you truly believe that every single person..unborn to elderly.. (except 8) on the planet was so extremely wicked that death was the only solution? Can you honestly defend a story like that?

The wickedness and number of deaths wasn’t the issue I was addressing, it was the “free will” portion pertaining to letting man have it, then punishing him for using it.

I don’t truly believe all were wicked, I do believe in a just God. Based on my reply to Walt, I do believe if there were innocent “casualties of war” their souls are in the hands of a just God and they’re resting with him.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

There is a simple answer SFD

Yes. There is...……….

 

[bullethead]

The wickedness and number of deaths wasn’t the issue I was addressing, it was the “free will” portion pertaining to letting man have it, then punishing him for using it.

I don’t truly believe all were wicked, I do believe in a just God. Based on my reply to Walt, I do believe if there were innocent “casualties of war” their souls are in the hands of a just God and they’re resting with him.

"Casualties of war"?
According to the stories you believe, the god you worship drowned EVERYTHING but a boat full of animals and 8 people. Nobody outside of a few hundred miles ever even heard of Yahweh and he drowned them anyway according to the stories. There was no war. He looked into everyone's hearts and drowned them anyway.
Sick and twisted entity. You can have him and put up with his psychopath ways. You can make all the excuses to justify his actions in the book you use.
I am glad that you are courageous enough to admit it.