God Does Not Predestinate Any Particular Person To Be Saved Or Lost

[Israel]

BTW, I have no difficulty in general following what GEM posts.

God knows he might just be here for my sake as a help.

GEM is among the plainest speaking men here, even if others do not find him so. For the record.

He conceals no knives.

 

[The Original Rooster]

Yes, Paul exclaimed that after seeing the plan of God for Jews and gentiles in Christ.

Is that not plain what he is referring to in consequence?

Seriously, do you not see that?

Of course Paul knew he couldn't figure it out, nor did he...but he saw.

Revelation.

Seriously, do you believe you can fathom the judgements and ways of God?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Actually Romans 11 is all about God blinding Israel until the full number of Gentiles is grafted in and then saving all of physical Israel. Man can't see God's judgement in doing that or His ways and that is why Paul said what he said.

If we back up to Chapter 9;
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction?

We, as humans, can't fathom a merciless God doing this. We can't fathom a merciless God electing a remnant based on just grace.
It don't sit right with our mind or concept of God.

Paul knew this and thus why he said what he said in Romans 11. God chose a Remnant out of physical Israel and blinded the rest. God rose Pharoah up for this very purpose.
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
We, as men, do not understand that. How could a merciless God do such a thing.
Paul said about God;
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?”
One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?”

When you you think about it, even if you believe in Free Will how can God find fault with us for sin, when we have no other choice but to sin? We were born into sin. We are flesh. Yet God still finds fault in us for sinning. We are guilty for something we had no choice in.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I've about got used to Gem's arrogance or the perception of his arrogance. He used to get on my nerves bit time, lol.
There is this other member that I have never seen eye to eye with. We do pretty good until I veer to far from his beliefs. I think it's easier to get along with each other if we share the same beliefs and not so easy if we don't. Yet some members do extremely well to get along with everyone.
I think we are all guilty in getting caught up in posting for boasting so to speak or for "self." I've been trying real hard to reel myself in from doing this and not to appear to just be posting for "self." I've been called on it by members that I was doing that, and I can see that I was.

 

[Spotlite]

Actually Romans 11 is all about God blinding Israel until the full number of Gentiles is grafted in and then saving all of physical Israel. Man can't see God's judgement in doing that or His ways and that is why Paul said what he said.

If we back up to Chapter 9;
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction?

We, as humans, can't fathom a merciless God doing this. We can't fathom a merciless God electing a remnant based on just grace.
It don't sit right with our mind or concept of God.

Paul knew this and thus why he said what he said in Romans 11. God chose a Remnant out of physical Israel and blinded the rest. God rose Pharoah up for this very purpose.
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
We, as men, do not understand that. How could a merciless God do such a thing.
Paul said about God;
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?”
One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?”

When you you think about it, even if you believe in Free Will how can God find fault with us for sin, when we have no other choice but to sin? We were born into sin. We are flesh. Yet God still finds fault in us for sinning. We are guilty for something we had no choice in.

There’s a good lesson here, Art. Reaping what you sow. Man sowed sin and man reaps sin.

It’s holds true in your own household. Things you do will be reaped by your kids / grandkids - good or bad.

We might be born into sin but God’s law is written in our hearts - we are without excuse. You’ll be judged by the Word for rejecting the Word.

 

[Israel]

Seriously, do you believe you can fathom the judgements and ways of God?

No more than He allows.

It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Ask.
Seek.
Knock.

"Don't ask questions" is everything religion bequeaths, and nothing of what Jesus gives.

Even gladly encourages.

 

[Artfuldodger]

There’s a good lesson here, Art. Reaping what you sow. Man sowed sin and man reaps sin.

It’s holds true in your own household. Things you do will be reaped by your kids / grandkids - good or bad.

We might be born into sin but God’s law is written in our hearts - we are without excuse. You’ll be judged by the Word for rejecting the Word.

While this is true, how can you read Romans 9-11 and not ask or wonder why Paul knew that we could not see how a just God could choose Pharoah for evil or choose a remnant and harden the rest? The whole reason for Paul's replies is that we would question God's call or judgement. Otherwise Paul would not have mentioned that we would question God's judgement in chapter 9 and 11. Paul knew that we would be saying "how could a just God raise Pharoah up for this purpose? How could the Potter make vessels of wrath? How could a just God choose a Remnant and harden the rest?
In chapter 9 right after the Potter and Clay. "One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?”
Why did Paul say that if it was just God using his foreknowledge to look ahead and see who would choose Him and who would not? If this were true then Paul would have said that instead of going to great lengths to tell us that we would question God's judgement and ways.
Then in Romans 11 he again knows that we will question God's judgement and makes some more comments about not being God's council, etc. Paul never says that God did any of these actions in Romans 9-11 based on foreknowledge. If so that would have been a much easier way to explain why God did what he did. It would be more logical for man to see God in this light than a God just choosing and hardening based on doing it based on being a Potter. A Potter chooses beforehand based on the needs of His glory.

 

[Spotlite]

While this is true, how can you read Romans 9-11 and not ask or wonder why Paul knew that we could not see how a just God could choose Pharoah for evil or choose a remnant and harden the rest? The whole reason for Paul's replies is that we would question God's call or judgement. Otherwise Paul would not have mentioned that we would in chapter 9 and 11. Paul knew that we would be saying "how could a just God raise Pharoah up for this purpose? How could the Potter make vessels of wrath? How could a just God choose a Remnant and harden the rest?

Back track and you’ll see that Pharaoh hardened his own heart multiple times before God did it permanently. God can use vessels of wrath. I don’t believe God created a vessel just for wrath. I believe He’s just smart enough to know a man will reject Him so He’ll stick that man in a spot He can use, such as Pharaoh. God wasn’t dependent on Pharaoh.

Scripture says their eyes are blinded due to their unbelief.

Just because we might question God doesn’t mean we have a right to question God or even make God guilty of our questioning. Paul’s point was don’t. Let God do God’s work.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I don't think any of us can fathom the judgements and ways of God? That was what Paul was teaching us in Romans 9 & 11. He knew that we would try to use human logic and reasoning. Sort of like the Atheist do in the other forum about the Flood, etc. They are trying to make us see an all powerful God to be just in the same description of a human.
It makes God a lot easier to understand and see as all powerful and just if we realize that He is not a human and we can't use or question what He does as just as unjust because it's all for His glory.
God is all knowing and all powerful. He doesn't have a plan B. He doesn't wear blinders nor does he change His plan based on the plans of man.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Back track and you’ll see that Pharaoh hardened his own heart multiple times before God did it permanently. God can use vessels of wrath. I don’t believe God created a vessel just for wrath. I believe He’s just smart enough to know a man will reject Him so He’ll stick that man in a spot He can use, such as Pharaoh. God wasn’t dependent on Pharaoh.

Scripture says their eyes are blinded due to their unbelief.

Just because we might question God doesn’t mean we have a right to question God or even make God guilty of our questioning. Paul’s point was don’t. Let God do God’s work.

OK, I'll give you Pharoah, even though God said he raised him up for this very purpose and Paul said we'd question God's judgement for doing so using the Potter and Clay story. I'm not sure why Paul went into this whole Potter and Clay story if Pharoah chose himself for his role. That was a crazy story that didn't fit and then Paul adding that we wouldn't get how a just God could do such a thing.
What about in Romans 11 where God chose a Remnant based on grace and only grace and hardening the rest to allow salvation to go out to the Gentiles? Why did Paul again explain that we would not be satisfied with God doing this and would thus have to make up non scriptural reasons why God did this as to make God appear "just" in the eyes of man?
Paul did this twice, once in chapter 9 and again in chapter 11. Why? Exactly what was it that Paul knew that we would not believe that a just God would do and thus needed clarification that God can do whatever the heck He wants to do because he is God.

 

[Artfuldodger]

The way Paul explains it in Romans 11 is God chose a remnant and hardened the rest to allow salvation to go to the Gentiles. That was pretty much Paul's revelation and mission.
It was God's plan from the get go to have a hardened Israel object Jesus and for Jesus to die on a cross. It was Plan A. There was no plan B.
God did this, not the Jews nor the Romans. This was all planned out before Creation.
This is the main lesson of Romans 11. It really matters not if an all powerful God caused it or just saw how it would happen. It's the same thing when you really think about it. Yet Paul explains it like our all powerful God caused it, thus his explanations that we would not understand how a just God could cause such a thing. If it was just foreknowledge, then Paul would not have to of explained how a just God could have caused such a plan.

 

[Spotlite]

OK, I'll give you Pharoah, even though God said he raised him up for this very purpose and Paul said we'd question God's judgement for doing so using the Potter and Clay story. I'm not sure why Paul went into this whole Potter and Clay story if Pharoah chose himself for his role. That was a crazy story that didn't fit and then Paul adding that we wouldn't get how a just God could do such a thing.
What about in Romans 11 where God chose a Remnant based on grace and only grace and hardening the rest to allow salvation to go out to the Gentiles? Why did Paul again explain that we would not be satisfied with God doing this and would thus have to make up non scriptural reasons why God did this as to make God appear "just" in the eyes of man?
Paul did this twice, once in chapter 9 and again in chapter 11. Why? Exactly what was it that Paul knew that we would not believe that a just God would do and thus needed clarification that God can do whatever the heck He wants to do because he is God.

We’re human. We’re going to question things.

 

[Spotlite]

The way Paul explains it in Romans 11 is God chose a remnant and hardened the rest to allow salvation to go to the Gentiles. That was pretty much Paul's revelation and mission.
It was God's plan from the get go to have a hardened Israel object Jesus and for Jesus to die on a cross. It was Plan A. There was no plan B.
God did this, not the Jews nor the Romans. This was all planned out before Creation.
This is the main lesson of Romans 11. It really matters not if an all powerful God caused it or just saw how it would happen. It's the same thing when you really think about it. Yet Paul explains it like our all powerful God caused it, thus his explanations that we would not understand how a just God could cause such a thing. If it was just foreknowledge, then Paul would not have to of explained how a just God could have caused such a plan.

Do you believe God will harden the hearts of anyone that wasn’t already going to reject Him?

His Omniscience has to be considered.

 

[gemcgrew]

I've about got used to Gem's arrogance or the perception of his arrogance. He used to get on my nerves bit time, lol.

LOL! Boldness is often perceived as arrogance. I have a particular message for a particular people. It isn't for everybody. It is older than Christianity. It is older than time.

 

[Ruger#3]

LOL! Boldness is often perceived as arrogance. I have a particular message for a particular people. It isn't for everybody. It is older than Christianity. It is older than time.

Boldness is delivering your message with confidence.
Displaying a sense superiority of others due to your knowledge is arrogance.

 

[Ruger#3]

When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with the humble is wisdom.

 

[Israel]

Just because we might question God doesn’t mean we have a right to question God or even make God guilty of our questioning. Paul’s point was don’t. Let God do God’s work.

Huh?

Paul's point was don't?

What?

Do the very thing(s) Jesus said to do?

No, that was not Paul's point.

 

[Israel]

There is logic to God and His working, but it is not the natural logic of man.

There is someone/something that can bear all questioning, even invites it knowing that the perfect logic of faith is all and only what can bear all question without crumbling. The foundations of all else are revealed as fraught, and fragile.

And if such questioning is consistent in the faith of the Son of God, is not only encouraged but rewarded.

"If any man lacks wisdom let him..."

And we know Jesus plainly said on more than one occasion "ask, seek, knock"

What Paul was specifically addressing was the matter of an inconsistency in logic by which a man questions God's right to judge.

Paul had already laid out (using Pharaoh, Jacob, and Esau as example) the sovereignty of God in all matters...even that His (God's) purpose in election might stand... and that not of works.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

That is the key matter "but of God that sheweth mercy."

How did Paul know what he was dealing with? What type of man...specifically...that would give the response he declared as would come as found here:

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

If one does not see, one simply does not see, there is no cause of accusation of ignorance, nor guilt in it if one simply does not see. But the fault in the logic is there, nonetheless. It can be seen.

But God forbid this plainly faulted logic used an an expose of such be employed to then proceed as a presumptive ban upon all question(s) a disciple might have before God as supplicant.

If any man lacks wisdom...

 

[The Original Rooster]

No more than He allows.

It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Ask.
Seek.
Knock.

"Don't ask questions" is everything religion bequeaths, and nothing of what Jesus gives.

Even gladly encourages.

Or maybe this instead? I'm not questioning about searching or asking the Lord as he has encouraged us to do, I'm simply saying that God's plans are complicated beyond our understanding.
Deuteronomy 29
29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, so that we may follow all the words of this Law.

 

[Spotlite]

Huh?

Paul's point was don't?

What?

Do the very thing(s) Jesus said to do?

No, that was not Paul's point.

Huh?

Just because we might question God doesn’t mean we have a right to question God or even make God guilty of our questioning. Paul’s point was don’t. Let God do God’s work.

Paul's point was don't?

That is correct.

What?

Remember this - "You presume much...even what you believe I would (or is it someone "like me"?) say to another in conversation with them."

The question from another -
"how could a just God raise Pharoah up for this purpose? How could the Potter make vessels of wrath? How could a just God choose a Remnant and harden the rest?"

The rest of my reply to the other that pertains to your question explained what I was referring to................the "questioning God"

"Just because we might question God doesn’t mean we have a right to question God or even make God guilty of our questioning. Paul’s point was don’t. Let God do God’s work"

Back to Paul - Paul had a-lot to say. Paul knew the majority of Jewish people were trusting the law to save them from God's wrath and went to great lengths in Romans to show that the law cannot save. This leads back to questioning God.

Can there be questions you ask God? That was not exchanged in conversation. What was exchanged was specific to a Just God doing God`s work. But when questions leave questioning and turn into accusations.......

We both know these were not just questions Paul was addressing - they were accusations to justify being justified by the law.