Harmonizing the new testament with the old testament

[Artfuldodger]

Scriptures show that Paul, an apostle personally trained by Jesus, was still Torah observant some 25 years after his conversion.

Any ideas why? He mostly taught that Gentiles shouldn't but perhaps in his discipleship, he kept Torah as a way to not offend the Torah keeping people he witnessed the Gospel to?
He made a big part of his revelation that there was no difference between the Jew and Gentile and that the wall between them was removed by the Cross. Plus that were were not required to keep the Law.

1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

Wasn't it sorta weird though for Paul to do that? Plus how could they still be under the law after the Cross? Unless Paul meant "to those who think they are under the Law."

 

[jwf2506]

They did not keep the dietary laws, remember Peter’s dream “kill and eat”.

Paul chastised Peter for his dietary hypocrisy.

Peter's vision is easily understood that Peter was not to call Cornelius common and to illustrate this Yahweh used clean and unclean animals if you will look back at the insert I out at the beginning the teach explains this text. Where does Paul chastise Peter for keeping the dietary laws?

 

[jwf2506]

PPaul

Scriptures show that Paul, an apostle personally trained by Jesus, was still Torah observant some 25 years after his conversion.

Any ideas why? He mostly taught that Gentiles shouldn't but perhaps in his discipleship, he kept Torah as a way to not offend the Torah keeping people he witnessed the Gospel to?
He made a big part of his revelation that there was no difference between the Jew and Gentile and that the wall between them was removed by the Cross. Plus that were were not required to keep the Law.

1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

Wasn't it sorta weird though for Paul to do that? Plus how could they still be under the law after the Cross? Unless Paul meant "to those who think they are under the Law."

Paul did keep the law and feast days
Acts 21:20-26
Acts 18:18-21
He even offers up animal sacrifice according to Numbers 6:13-20
Once again Paul's whole message was you could not obtain salvation by keeping the law he was not teaching them that they should not keep the law because it was sin to do so

 

[jwf2506]

Just look at 1st Corinthians 9:24
It says don't you know that those who run in a race that all run but only one wins the prize . Well just by reading one could think well only one person is going to heaven but we all know better than that , so we must look at the scriptures "the 1st covenant and the renewed covenant "as a whole to understand it. And not just pick out a verse here and there and try to come up with a doctrine of our own.
We do not serve a schizophrenic God that changes his mind .

 

[brutally honest]

The whole law of Moses

Acts 15:5-6:

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.”

If you’re correct, what is there to consider? All the apostles had to say was, “The Pharisees are correct. The gentiles need to keep the entire law of Moses.”

… but they didn’t say that.

 

[brutally honest]

Paul did keep the law and feast days
Acts 21:20-26
Acts 18:18-21
He even offers up animal sacrifice according to Numbers 6:13-20

So Christians today should be offering up animal sacrifices?

 

[brutally honest]

Acts 15:24-29:

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.”

I just don’t see how you can read that and then say gentiles need to keep the whole law of Moses. Remember, this was a LETTER sent to the gentiles. What gentile, after reading that, would think he needed to obey the whole law of Moses?

 

[brutally honest]

Acts 15:24-29:

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

I’ll paraphrase:

“We, the apostles who walked with the Lord for three years, did NOT command you to be circumcised or to keep the law. The guys who said that are just stirring up trouble.”

 

[Artfuldodger]

So Christians today should be offering up animal sacrifices?

Any idea why Paul kept Torah but at the same time preached against it?
What was that story about where Paul paid those guys to shave their heads to prove to the Jews that he was a Torah keeper? If he is telling us not to keep Torah, why is he trying to convince those Jews that he himself does?

 

[Madman]

Where does Paul chastise Peter for keeping the dietary laws?

I said Peter’s hypocrisy.

Does it matter? Would it change anything? It would just be “explained” away.

As I said I am not here to argue or even change your mind.

What makes you believe the Church lost her way, the teachings are in someway false or corrupt? Men will come in the latter days with false teachings.

There are are many who have left the faith looking for “answers”, I choose to believe the Bible, the traditions, and the teachings of the Church that Christ started.

Reread Hebrews, the writer talks of the better way.

 

[Madman]

Peter's vision is easily understood that Peter was not to call Cornelius common and to illustrate this Yahweh used clean and unclean animals if you will look back at the insert I out at the beginning the teach explains this text.

A perfect example of the warning in 2 Peter 3:16.

 

[jwf2506]

Does it matter? Would it change anything? It would just be “explained” away.

As I said I am not here to argue or even change your mind.

What makes you believe the Church lost her way, the teachings are in someway false or corrupt? Men will come in the latter days with false teachings.

There are are many who have left the faith looking for “answers”, I choose to believe the Bible, the traditions, and the teachings of the Church that Christ started.

Reread Hebrews, the writer talks of the better way.

The writer is not saying the law has been done away with, now remember I DO NOT believe you can get to heaven by JUST following the law .You are correct you will not change my mind and It's ok if we disagree with each other but we cannot disagree with Yahweh he has the final say, and you are correct it does say in the final days men will come and teach false teachings and you can definitely see that in most of the church's of today and when people say the law that David, a man after Yahweh's own heart says it is beautiful and perfect and how he meditates on it day and night, that now it is just completely done away is absurd, think about this Yahweh said don't eat a pig because it is detestable, did pigs all of a sudden evolve and become non detestable that makes absolutely no sense, how about when Yeshua said in Matthew 5:17-19 until heaven and earth pass away not even the smallest jot or tittle that is the smallest mark on the scroll would pass away, well the heavens and the earth is still here, also what about when Yeshua says ANYONE who does or teaches others to do the smallest commandment of the law, Now think about this image what happens to the person who doesn't do the biggest commandment and teaches others to do the same.Now mind you this is YESHUA the messiah the same one you are saying has done away with the law of YAHWEH the creator, he is the one who is speaking in Matthew and there is so many other text that backs this understanding of the scriptures. Now to your other statement, Why in the world would someone have to leave the faith to look for answers THEY ARE RIGHT THERE IN THE TEXT. the way many "churches" and "traditions " teach it makes it seem like there is 2 different Elohims, 1 in the first covenant and a different 1 in the renewed covenant and that is a problem. The new testament does not contradict the old testament and if it ever seems that way you need to stop and study and see why you are misunderstanding the text because the holy scriptures never contradict themselves.

 

[jwf2506]

A perfect example of the warning in 2 Peter 3:16.

You are exactly right this is a perfect example of 2nd Peter 3:16, So you really believe that in the whole story of Cornelius Yahweh thought it would be a good time to tell Peter that the dietary laws was done away with, come on now really, I'm sure Yahweh would have approached that epiphany at a different time. Why do you think it says in Acts 10:17 that Peter was deeply perplexed about what the vision meant, then in 10:19 it says while he was still thinking about the vision the spirit said 3 men are looking for you "the spirit did not say hey Peter you can now have a porkchop sandwich " then look at verses 28,29 we then see Peter fully understands the vision that Yahweh was telling him not call any MAN "human" common or UNCLEAN.
Now tell me who does it look like is twisting this scripture

 

[jwf2506]

I apologize if it seems that I'm being a jerk because that is not my intention, sometimes I let my emotions get in the way when we should only be edifying the church of Yahweh.

 

[brutally honest]

I apologize if it seems that I'm being a jerk …

You misspelled “Jew”.

 

[brutally honest]

I apologize if it seems that I'm being a jerk because that is not my intention, sometimes I let my emotions get in the way when we should only be edifying the church of Yahweh.

You don’t come across as a jerk.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I guess I'm sorta hung up on understanding Paul's actions as a way to get through this. If I was a Law keeping Jew and was suddenly elected and converted by Jesus, I don't think I'd be able to return to Jewish synagogues and the Temple and take part in the very stuff I am suppose to be against now. I'd go and and be more like, "hey you guys, quit doing all this stuff, Jesus fulfilled it. It is finished.
Then they had Paul pay to have those men shave their heads to prove he was a Torah keeper.
Then Paul had to go before the King in court. His defense was that he had not committed any offense against the Law or the Jews. I just wished Paul would have just denounced it all and told the King and court that grace had replaced the Law. They would have probably stoned him but at least he would have said what most Christians wished he would have said. If he had, this would not even be a discussion.
What part of this story am I missing? OH and I do believe that grace replaced the law when Christ died on the Cross. Actually I don't think the Law ever saved anyone.

 

[jwf2506]

You misspelled “Jew”.

Oh no I am most definitely a gentile just like you I just believe that once I was adopted into their family I would live by their rules.

 

[Artfuldodger]

To do what Paul did would be like me being a Pagan and converting to Christianity, returning to those old Pagan worship meetings and telling them they can still do all of those old rituals as long as they believe in Jesus and worship his Father.
Wouldn't this be a strange way for me to act just to connect? Especially if I was a really popular and educated person if the Pagan faith before my conversion.
Seems like my message to those Pagans would be to get rid of all them old ways and follow the path of Jesus only. and the grace of his Father.
I do realize this analogy is a bit extreme since Jews and Christians worship the same God and that us Gentiles have been grafted in to natural/physical Israel.

 

[jwf2506]

I also believe that just following the law will not save you
But I do believe when I try to follow the law of Yahweh it makes him happy.
I believe Yeshua is ok with it too

 

[Artfuldodger]

I also believe that just following the law will not save you
But I do believe when I try to follow the law of Yahweh it makes him happy.
I believe Yeshua is ok with it too

If you look at some of our other recent threads, you will see that a lot of folks agree with you as well. It's not that it replaces the Cross but that it keeps one in a more perfect relationship with God. Maybe because they don't take it to the extreme as you, they think they are disagreeing with you but really they are more aligned with you.