Intense preparations before pontiff meets Iraqi ayatollah

Madman

Senior Member
Haven't seen that one. I would need to read more on the topic. On the surface it appears a large mistake, "what does light have to do with darkness" comes to mind, however discussions are not bad. Even religions outside of Christianity have some thread of truth, start there, who knows maybe the Anatolia could come to Christ.

We need to remember two things, 1) the pope is not the church, and does not speak for the Church on politics which this is. 2) he is an old south American Marxist.

I am not a big fan. He speaks in platitudes, very shallow. Just my opinion.
 
Last edited:

gordon 2

Senior Member
Sectarian violence and geopolitics in the middle east--- ( everywhere in the middle east and Africa)---has put Christians between the hammer and the anvil.

I understand that the motive for the Christian side is to promote toleration for Christians native to these areas. And it should not be interpreted as a political move by anyone of the parties.

I don't think the Vatican's motive is political, but rather humanitarian. I don't understand the pope will speak to politics, especially that all pastors within the church are NOT supposed to lobby for political office. If he was doing politics he would simply be hypocritical.

Christians have been persecuted by all sides in the middle east conflicts, under the present and continuing political climates, especially of the last 50 yrs or so....

Christians are the forgotten, the unmentioned and abused of the middle east. No one wants to say it in terms of geopolitics so as not to muddy their waters, but everyone knows it and it has been know for a long time. Christians in the middle east are forced to wander. They ( Christians of the middle east and in some areas of Africa) are like other people(s) of history who have been caught between empires and sectarian fighting.

I hope or pray for good results personally-- I hope Christians will get some respect by the powers that be in this area of the earth. That some will vent and make politics of the mission is without doubt. That some Christians might be spared their lives and homes and homes in the places they chose to live-- I hope it is this that is the outcome.

In Iraq Christians were protected and were part of Sadam Hussein's government. His foreign minister was Christian for example. They were protected by the heavy hand of a dictator. When the dictator was hanged and law came into the hands of sectarian groups who made their own laws--- Christians a minority in the mele of factions were and are very venerable to sectarian fighting and violence.

I note that in the article the Iraqi religious leader holds that religious leaders have no business in political office which is unlike the case in Iran where the leadership is political. The two religious leaders, the pontiff and the Ayatollah, have at least this common point. I hope that the reason for their views on this-- brings them in understanding that the Christians need to be protected from sectarian violence and persecutions.
 
Last edited:

GeorgiaGlockMan

Senior Member
I am catholic and do not like this pope one bit.

He has driven more people from the catholic church that I know than I can count.

I agree that he is Marxist fool that has brought one sided political belief into an arena that it should not exist in.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
We need an American pope to set the example of what a real pope is. :) No not really. LOL. I personally don't mind the present pope. I liked the German pope. I liked the Polish pope. I'd like a Chinese pope. But I like the CC more than all the popes put together... Popes don't break or make my approval...they just is warts and all. If they were in a nursing bed I'd take care of them equally. They all are somebody's son, somebody's brother , somebody's friend.

Not long ago a Marxist was a Red that some in society shamelessly wanted dead... I hope this is not what you hangers on have in mind. But even if you do... so be it. I don't mind Francis... I think Vatican 2 was a good thing... We need another one... so "fake" Catholics can get weeded out--like happened in V2.
 
Last edited:

Madman

Senior Member
We need an American pope to set the example of what a real pope is. :) No not really. LOL. I personally don't mind the present pope. I liked the German pope. I liked the Polish pope. I'd like a Chinese pope. But I like the CC more than all the popes put together... Popes don't break or make my approval...they just is warts and all. If they were in a nursing bed I'd take care of them equally. They all are somebody's son, somebody's brother , somebody's friend.

Not long ago a Marxist was a Red that some in society shamelessly wanted dead... I hope this is not what you hangers on have in mind. But even if you do... so be it. I don't mind Francis... I think Vatican 2 was a good thing... We need another one... so "fake" Catholics can get weeded out--like happened in V2.
Popes come and go, some good, some not so good. The Church continues.

I'd have to go back through Vatican 2, I seem to remember it as a capitulation to the protestants.

If memory serves me it "dumbed down" the faith in an effort for ecumenicalism.

Jeremiah 6:16
 

Madman

Senior Member
I am catholic and do not like this pope one bit.

He has driven more people from the catholic church that I know than I can count.

I agree that he is Marxist fool that has brought one sided political belief into an arena that it should not exist in.
Sad. Never let Judas keep you from Christ.
 

GeorgiaGlockMan

Senior Member
Sad. Never let Judas keep you from Christ.
Oh, it's not sad at all..

The pope doesn't keep me from God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit. In fact his actions, have made me closer to God.

I just see him for the pharisees that he is.

I think that is pretty clear thought to me.

Would you blindly follow someone who you know and see is operating in disagreement of God's word and law?
 

Madman

Senior Member
Oh, it's not sad at all..

The pope doesn't keep me from God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit. In fact his actions, have made me closer to God.

I just see him for the pharisees that he is.

I think that is pretty clear thought to me.

Would you blindly follow someone who you know and see is operating in disagreement of God's word and law?
I was responding to "he has driven more people from the Catholic Church than I can count" , hence my responses don't let Judas keep you from Jesus".

As to "Would you blindly follow someone who you know and see is operating in disagreement of God's word and law?"
I don't understand, as a Catholic I follow no man, there is no need to follow a man. Our beliefs, tradition, and worship are grounded in the Bible and the ancient teachings.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Popes come and go, some good, some not so good. The Church continues.

I'd have to go back through Vatican 2, I seem to remember it as a capitulation to the protestants.

If memory serves me it "dumbed down" the faith in an effort for ecumenicalism.

Jeremiah 6:16


I don't know how you could come to the remote notion that Vatican 2 was a capitulation of any kind to anyone. It is well documented. I smell a bias in your outlook -- however we all have them.

It is my understanding that the goal of Vat 2 was to orient the church in the direction of the men and women of our times as opposed to previous historical times. In other words the purpose of the CC did not change, but the way it ministered to a new target did.

For example the American before the American revolution is not the same man as after the revolution. The man before the WW2 is not the same man after WW2. Therefore the target changed for the Church and it attempted to minister to the man of a new world after WW2. Many within could not keep up with the new systemic algorithm seeing the new face of the Church as if Christ had been reinvented. Which of course He was not.

When the medium becomes the message and once the medium is removed people clear out because the medium had gone the medium was an idol. That is what the CC had become to many C. When their idol vanished like so they did. Nevertheless the Church remains and will no doubt re-orient itself to new men and women as they come into history. The CC is universal not only to all on earth with present differences, but universal also to all through time(s).


PS. Are the man before and after communications could be possible on social platforms and business was possible due the internet the same dudes? Amazon, the new social merchant, is doing pretty good business world wide in providing for all people's happiness... without armies or navies of its own at the world gates to give it security. New man?
 
Last edited:

j_seph

Senior Member
Popes come and go, some good, some not so good. The Church continues.

I'd have to go back through Vatican 2, I seem to remember it as a capitulation to the protestants.

If memory serves me it "dumbed down" the faith in an effort for ecumenicalism.

Jeremiah 6:16
Does the Pope do for the Catholic church? Does he set rules/regulations/guides for instruction?
Is he considered the leader for all Catholic churches?
 

Madman

Senior Member
Does the Pope do for the Catholic church? Does he set rules/regulations/guides for instruction?
Is he considered the leader for all Catholic churches?
He is the chief among equals in the RC Church I believe.

No he does not "rules/regulations/guides for instruction".
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
He is the chief administrative officer. He's like the NRA's Wayne Lapierre as in the face of and the head of ( manager) the organization. He gets input from both the little guy and gal and the big shots from top to bottom and bottom up. He works at making the whole organization to conform to a set of values not unlike The Constitution and the history of gun ownership is used to give culture to the NRA. The difference is that the commission of the organization is not putting forward the 2ed Amendment in relation to gun ownership, but rather Christ to owners of a spiritual nature.

He is just an ordinary guy as a guy, but as a Chief Executive Officer (pope) the buck stops with him. ( The buck has to stop with someone.) What he might say or write as a private individual even though he is pope is not binding on anyone. What he "stamps" with the office is binding to the organization.

Like former President Trump maybe... he can say all kinds of stuff and it is not binding on anyone--until it is an executive order which he's signed off on as President elect. Sort of same deal with pope.

Catholics generally know the difference between the personality of popes and the personality of the Church. Everyone knows to toss cheap shots at both... when they're bored and sometimes people are serious about concerns.
 
Last edited:

Madman

Senior Member
I don't know how you could come to the remote notion that Vatican 2 was a capitulation of any kind to anyone. It is well documented. I smell a bias in your outlook -- however we all have them.

It is my understanding that the goal of Vat 2 was to orient the church in the direction of the men and women of our times as opposed to previous historical times. In other words the purpose of the CC did not change, but the way it ministered to a new target did.

For example the American before the American revolution is not the same man as after the revolution. The man before the WW2 is not the same man after WW2. Therefore the target changed for the Church and it attempted to minister to the man of a new world after WW2. Many within could not keep up with the new systemic algorithm seeing the new face of the Church as if Christ had been reinvented. Which of course He was not.

When the medium becomes the message and once the medium is removed people clear out because the medium had gone the medium was an idol. That is what the CC had become to many C. When their idol vanished like so they did. Nevertheless the Church remains and will no doubt re-orient itself to new men and women as they come into history. The CC is universal not only to all on earth with present differences, but universal also to all through time(s).


PS. Are the man before and after communications could be possible on social platforms and business was possible due the internet the same dudes? Amazon, the new social merchant, is doing pretty good business world wide in providing for all people's happiness... without armies or navies of its own at the world gates to give it security. New man?
I am definitely biased when it comes to change. Change with a definitive purpose is good, change for the sake of change is not.

Societal change sometimes happens rapidly, as in your examples, however I believe liturgical changes should be made considerably more slowly, if they are are made at all.

As I said, it has been years since I read Vatican II, and I would need to revisit it to defend my position, however since I am not RC it does affect me.

I hold many thoughts on worship of which none are of any value to anyone other than me.
 
Top