Madman
Senior Member
I'm a "one cup of coffee and water, no ice, the rest of the day" myself kind of guy.
Glad to know the conversation will remain "sober".
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Is Chewing Tobacco a Sin?
- Thread starter LittleDrummerBoy
- Start date
Glad to know the conversation will remain "sober".
I assumed meeting for drinks was "meeting for alcoholic drinks". My bad. ?
Madman
Senior Member
I should have said " iced tea and wings". ?
Maybe I shouldn't have assumed "alcoholic".
NE GA Pappy
Mr. Pappy
wings? did someone say wings?
Madman
Senior Member
We may not all know exactly what is meant by "drinks" but we sure know what is meant by "wings". We are talking about chicken wings aren't we?
NE GA Pappy
Mr. Pappy
Israel
BANNED
I would suggest otherwise. if the first sentence in the Code of Canon Law (dealing with fasts and abstentions) for this organization is believed.
Can. 1249 The divine law binds all the Christian faithful to do penance each in his or her own way.
And then goes on to prescribe:
In order for all to be united among themselves by some common observance of penance, however, penitential days are prescribed on which the Christian faithful devote themselves in a special way to prayer, perform works of piety and charity, and deny themselves by fulfilling their own obligations more faithfully and especially by observing fast and abstinence, according to the norm of the following canons.
Can. 1250 The penitential days and times in the universal Church are every Friday of the whole year and the season of Lent.
Can. 1251 Abstinence from eating meat or some other food according to the prescripts of the conference of bishops is to be observed on ,of abstinence binds those who have completed their fourteenth year of age. The law of fasting, however, binds all those who have attained their majority until the beginning of their sixtieth year. Nevertheless, pastors of souls and parents are to take care that minors not bound by the law of fast and abstinence are also educated in a genuine sense of penance.
Can. 1253 The conference of bishops can determine more precisely the observance of fast and abstinence as well as substitute other forms of penance, especially works of charity and exercises of piety, in whole or in part, for abstinence and fast.
There may be little issue at all in any club, organization, fraternity, group's right to self identify themselves, and in such identification prescribe their own rules for membership, or rules for remaining a consistent member in "good standing"; and to also impose penalties if and when such rules are not followed. Whether their list be long or short in requirements is of no consequence.
The believer may learn though, of all these worldly self identifiers, there remains a something not of this world whose identity is all that is beyond self identification, but rather an identification given, gifted; neither of their own making nor of their own establishment. This gift of identifying the Lord Jesus...as the Lord, and in that being made able to identify with the Lord. These few words do not begin to relate that glory.
And they discover, sooner or later, there is also a jealousy not of this world, over that identity. All jealousy in truth, over that identity. No less is that, that in that identity, is the identifying that He alone is given to recognize Himself, and what proceeds from Himself.
This matter of glory, of that which proceeds from Himself and over which such jealousy cannot be ever described as less than in full force holds the many "teachable moments" (as disciples are taught) each endures. Paul did not resolve to himself to die daily. He learned he was assigned to it.
There is a faithful husband/head that reproves individually, (as many as I love I rebuke and chasten) through His death for her, and by the revelation of that death, that she, as to be made faithful bride, will experience. All that are under such "sentence of death" in themselves, quite individually...(and of such a personal nature in experience that is so far beyond any previous understanding of "personal")...are on their way to becoming true persons.
And each is learning such ministration (ministered almost too personally) is all that helps any see, they are both not alone (in truth) and as its ministration is accomplished in each...a part of what is called as His bride.
Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
This almost too personal invasion of this death being ministered, by its very nature of such exquisite and, (were it not for God) unbearable personal-ness...may become, even in time, aware that this is accruing to their conviction of the resurrection, for such exquisite aim (yes, even call it attention) to themselves, and in themselves, they now know cannot be accomplished by the dead. And they are being disabused of any and all self identification. It is enough to know they appear...in that eye.
But perhaps, here speaking too much of what may appear mechanisms to some, I would do more damage than benefit to continue.
Suffice it to say the ever living One is not of mechanism.
LittleDrummerBoy
Senior Member
I can appreciate this perspective as a high level view, but Scripture gives enough imperatives to "stop sinning" and enough examples of discussions of what actions are and are not sinful for Christians that it a Biblical view of sin must also include what one does and not just who one is.
Revelation 2: 1
To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.
4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Note the imperative is to "Repent and do the things you did at first" rather than "Repent and be the Christians you were at first."
Madman
Senior Member
I just read the 32, there is an expectation of fasting and penance, just as our Lord
Does Christ not call us to be a people of fasting and of prayer? Why would the church call us to any less?
Does Christ not call us to be a people of fasting and of prayer? Why would the church call us to any less?
Madman
Senior Member
guess what I had for supper?
NE GA Pappy
Mr. Pappy
fish and chips?
LittleDrummerBoy
Senior Member
This is the typical sleight of hand used to confer more authority to men over other men than intended by Scripture. A calling to fasting and prayer does not mean the manner and time of that fasting and prayer is dictated by some men and other men are sinning by not following human directives.
Under the New Covenant, all men are priests accountable to Christ for their lives. Scripture says, "The head of every man is Christ." The job of church ministries is "to prepare God's people for works of service." That is really quite different from directing that service.
With respect to the OP, since Scripture is silent, it would be wrong for a church to say, "Chewing tobacco is a sin." But Christians do well to point each other to the Lord and to Scripture, as there are Scriptural principles of moderation whose violation may be used for the individual believer to determine whether a sinful excess is present in their own case.
I agree. As long as we also agree that our sins do not and can not change who we are. They change our perception, many times, of who we are, but never who we are to God.
There is a "coming short" of the kingdom that can occur daily, and even hourly. But there's always that city of refuge to run to. Remember the city of refuge in the OT, and it's purpose? It was a shadow of something, er Someone, much greater. Lovely picture.
Madman
Senior Member
Men do not have authority over men, Christ has authority and he gave his church the responsibility of the proper use of certain aspects of that authority. We see a perfect example of that in Acts 2 during the Jerusalem council.
If a brother is in sin we are to talk to him, if he refuses we are to take another, if he refuses 2 then we take him to the CHURCH, if he refuses still, the CHURCH sets him out. We also see the Apostles excersizing authority over the various churches, I doubt any of us would consider that "typical sleight of hand used to confer more authority to men over other men".
Biblical, church authority is biblical.
Not fasting is not claimed as sinful by the church, the church claims that fasting and prayer are beneficial for the Christian.
Historically Christian's have fasted once a week and during various penatential seasons. We see time again on Acts and the Gospels mention of fasting and when it was done. If you choose not to fast no one considers it a sin but the church does tell the body what is harmful and what is beneficial in their daily and spiritual life.
I am assuming the body that you are a part of does too.
As for 1 Peter 2:9 yes in our baptism we have the same priesthood that had been given to Israel, that we may proclaim the praise of Him who called us out of the darkness into His marvelous light.
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