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Is Chewing Tobacco a Sin?
- Thread starter LittleDrummerBoy
- Start date
Some people sure worry a lot about stuff.
If God wants to cast me into Hades for dipping Red Seal after he done drowned the whole world, burned up whole cities with fire and brimstone, hardened a whole nation's hearts and then killed them in horrible ways for it, tortured Job and killed his whole family for trying to do what's right, demanded that a righteous man sacrifice his son to him, etc., etc., then you just bring it on, old Bearded Hypocrite in the Sky. I'm playing against a stacked deck, anyway. You made me who I am. And you aren't very righteous yourself.
I think God probably has better things to do than sit aroud spying on people seeing who's dipping snuff, who's drinking a cold beer, who's dancing, who's listening to rock and roll, and suchlike. If he worries about stuff like that , I don't have much respect for him if he created and designed us and our natures.
If God wants to cast me into Hades for dipping Red Seal after he done drowned the whole world, burned up whole cities with fire and brimstone, hardened a whole nation's hearts and then killed them in horrible ways for it, tortured Job and killed his whole family for trying to do what's right, demanded that a righteous man sacrifice his son to him, etc., etc., then you just bring it on, old Bearded Hypocrite in the Sky. I'm playing against a stacked deck, anyway. You made me who I am. And you aren't very righteous yourself.
I think God probably has better things to do than sit aroud spying on people seeing who's dipping snuff, who's drinking a cold beer, who's dancing, who's listening to rock and roll, and suchlike. If he worries about stuff like that , I don't have much respect for him if he created and designed us and our natures.
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Browniez
Senior Member
If you leave the world a better place than you found it, loved and had faith to your wife, and gave your kids all of yourself...
I have a hard time God is holding a can of Cope against you.
If people spent as much as much effort searching for (and addressing) their own flaws as they do the flaws of others, perhaps we would make progress in this world.
I have a hard time God is holding a can of Cope against you.
If people spent as much as much effort searching for (and addressing) their own flaws as they do the flaws of others, perhaps we would make progress in this world.
I am a God fearing man. I really try to be a good husband & father. Pretty sure I'm successful at that. Very involved in our church. I am a Christian & strive to do what's right.
I dip snuff. I would like to quit, but haven't yet. I am not a hypocrite. I don't hide it.
I don't think that will keep me out of heaven any more than a Christian struggling with hate, gossip, gluttony, lust, etc.
There are outward things folks do that are easily noticed. There are many more inward things folks do that go unnoticed.
Thankfully it's by God's Grace we are saved. Not works. It it were by works Heaven would be empty.
I dip snuff. I would like to quit, but haven't yet. I am not a hypocrite. I don't hide it.
I don't think that will keep me out of heaven any more than a Christian struggling with hate, gossip, gluttony, lust, etc.
There are outward things folks do that are easily noticed. There are many more inward things folks do that go unnoticed.
Thankfully it's by God's Grace we are saved. Not works. It it were by works Heaven would be empty.
Browning Slayer
Official Voice Of The Dawgs !
Those good ol hypocrite, holier than thou Christians with those beliefs have skeletons in their closets. Problem is, it’s usually 100 times worse than a guy chewing tobacco or smoking. It’s mental issues related to extreme trauma. Sucks to be that dude.
SemperFiDawg
Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
There's a story that the London Times once sent an inquiry to notable authors of that day asking them to elaborate on the topic "The problem with the world today...." It is reported that G. K. Chesterton sent back a terse, but accurate reply that read.
"Dear Sirs.
With regards to your question, 'What's wrong with the world today?' I am.
Sincerely
G.K. Chesterton"
That pretty much sums it up.
Big7
The Oracle
Scripture is not for self interpretation.
LittleDrummerBoy
Senior Member
Why equate all of Scripture with the Law? Why assume that Scripture is not a part of the process by which God writes the his commands on the hearts of his children? The Law of Moses is fulfilled. But Scripture contains many precious promises not even found in the Law. If you believe the Bible, you know that it is through Scripture that Christ washes his people. (Ephesians 5:26) You also know the foolishness of pretending Scripture is like a human diary - which is a powerless private record. In contrast, Scripture is "living and active" and has the power to bring about both its promises and its requirements in the lives of God's children. It is not separate from the voice of the Holy Spirit - it confirms the voice of the Holy Spirit and the voice of the Holy Spirit confirms Scripture.
But we must remember that "no man can serve two masters" and that "the head of every man is Christ." We must also remember that Christ's "yoke is easy and his burden light." The commands of Christ that disciples are to obey is a lighter yoke than the common alternatives. The commands of Christ are a lighter yoke than the yoke of sin, the yoke of the law, and the yoke of Pharisaical bullies who add commands of their own invention from the "traditions."
How many new believers are saddled with traditional rules that are absent from Christ's actual instructions in Scripture? Don't smoke, don't chew, don't run with those who do. Don't drink. Don't dance. Other than Scripture, how do we know that these are not Christ's yoke when so many churches and "Christians" are saying they are? Scripture says, "Let no one judge you by what you eat or drink." Pharisaical bullies use guilt and manipulation to put a heavier yoke on men's shoulders. What about other yokes? Tithing and church attendance are not demanded by New Testament instructions. Sure, the Holy Spirit may move in the hearts of individual believers, but it is an unbiblical yoke to make these litmus tests for spirituality.
Christ died to set us free: from sin, from the Law, and from Pharisaical bullies who try and impose a heavier yoke. Scripture is a powerful gift that believers can use to distinguish God's voice and Christ's true yoke from all the other voices and all the heavier yokes. Of course, Christ died to free the Pharisaical bullies also - if only they would accept his free gift and stop trying to impose their foolish rules on others.
Sure, some may have a testimony of deliverance from alcoholism, and the Holy Spirit may have instructed them not to drink. OK. But it's a legalism to attempt to apply this instruction to others. The Holy Spirit has given me many disciplines over the years. I remember throwing away all my secular rock albums. But I would be wrong to make this a rule for others. For most of my adult life, I haven't had a TV. Not drinking alcohol is a ministry discipline for some believers, not a rule for all. (Just as refraining from meat is a ministry discipline for some.)
I don't have a conflict between grace and obedience. Through God's grace and Christ's sacrifice, my heart has been purchased for God. I am not my own. I was bought at a price. The conflict is between my flesh and obedience. But "God's grace teaches us to say No! to ungodliness and worldly passions." Obedience earns nothing. It is simply my response to the greatest gift I could ever receive.
But what do I obey? Lots of men have tried to boss me around. But since no man can serve two masters, I make every effort to be discern Christ's voice from the imitations. That would be much harder without the gift of Scripture.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
In keeping with obedience, in what way has Christ made your yoke lighter? Granted you still have one, exactly in what real ways has having Christ made it easier to be obedient to God?
I guess I'm asking, are the obedience requirements less and if not, does having Christ spirit help you overcome these requirements. Also do you see these obedience requirements as burdens?
LittleDrummerBoy
Senior Member
I answer this questions in more detail in the other thread you started with a similar question:
https://forum.gon.com/threads/jesus-has-lifted-our-burdens.960045/page-2#post-12109706
But the subset of that reply that is of most direct relation to the subject of human-imposed rules like "chewing tobacco is a sin" is:
Jesus removes the burden of being bossed around by religious authorities, since "the head of every man is Christ" and "no man can serve two masters." His rebuke is ongoing for those who would place or accept a religious yoke of human authority -
a) Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? (Acts 15:10)
b) For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. (Galatians 5:1)
c) So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. (Romans 14:16-17)
d) And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them. (Luke 11:46)
e) For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. (Acts 15:28-29)
f) Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of wickedness,
to undo the straps of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free,
and to break every yoke? (Isaiah 58:6)
Israel
BANNED
Art, I find myself a very odd creature to myself.
And although I can see where that sounds like an argument against any or all peace or comfort of home; that reality of living with the odd a seeming presentation of all challenge or stress, of a seeming unsettlement, nevertheless it is always to the better.
I daresay it is only Christ who has made, and makes this known to me. I will not regale you with all the mayhem that ensued from a man like me, thinking he knew himself. Thinking he knew himself so well in every situation as to even predict and assure, (first to himself, and then to others) how he is, and how he will be.
You can see the folly of a bankrupt man issuing endless promissory notes, no? Even to himself. Actually always first to himself, thinking he enriched himself, and in such beguiling of that false economy...issuing them to others. I am this...and I will be this...I was "bankable". Like I said...what need to recount where such false accounting must lead?
Rightly to many in the faith, especially those strong in Christ, this is just so much beating of a dead horse. But I am weak, and though needy of those stronger, I also cannot deny I can relate (unless I seek to present myself a liar) to what shows itself in weakness.
And though I believe consistency to be a great strength, I see I was very weakest when I most presumed it to myself, not even able to imagine any other might possess it to my measure. I so easily saw every trip and fall as others were made aware they were not as (I believed) they thought themselves to be. But me? No, there was no situation I didn't consider myself equipped to. To myself I knew no limit unable to be either purchased or accomplished by issue of promise to myself.
To say this persisted even after confession of Jesus Christ, I cannot lay to His doing. I was not (and do not consider now myself) as fully aware of all that is in the truth of this confession...Jesus Christ is Lord. The significance of His singularity was not perceived to much measure, at all, in the assigning of absolute limit to all that is else to Him.
But I do believe that I can say with some assurance that the man enters an arena heretofore totally unknown to him in that confession. He may not know (as I have not known) just how deeply he is declaring his abdication of a place so deeply lusted for and coveted, that until that is being made known to him, he will continue thus. Claw must be turned to open hand.
And it matters not, in the all, to what measure a man accounts his own sincerity as deeply as he may plumb it, for here nothing can either add, nor detract. He may learn it is all of grace to his receiving, being allowed to agree with what is already settled in Heaven.
And it might appear the above is the most miserable confession, the most rancid of testimonies. The weakest (if at all) testimony of Jesus Christ imaginable. No one need receive it, may they find better. I have little care if all one sees is a reed blown to and fro, having so little root in himself...so little consistency.
I can testify of a grace found here, that even if it be of no consequence or benefit to any other...I find it has been O! so lovingly placed, recorded, declared...for one such as me. Even if only for one. Even if only...for me.
A dear one knew what would need comfort, what would so easily disqualify itself otherwise, what could not, in longing for a consistency, and not finding it in himself...would be then crushed by utter despairing in all hopelessness.
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Someone saw what was happening to me...someone saw what would happen in a man such as me, and someone wrote for my comfort and encouragement (even though it be strong reproof) seeing what danger to the soul as to a tipping might occur if one were not warned sternly, that the vexation, the perfect frustration (even) of yet encountering such inconsistency (as sin is totally inconsistent to Christ) is not inconsistent itself...to seeking to know Him.
There are no "mental gymnastics" that can establish the soul here. And I am not persuaded the man who wrote it wrote it as a from of "automatic writing", as though a pen were placed in his hand and he, merely thoughtless and mindless as though with eyes closed he scribed, and then opened his eyes to see what he had written.
No, I believe a man discovered in himself a provocation of such doubts, even such contradictions, even such things as would be called (to himself) sin in a measure so previously unknown, and of such depth as never appreciated...as not caused by Christ...but being flushed out of hiding, (so to speak) by that light he had received in allowance of his agreement.
And he was moved in all grace to set this down...even as a sort of confession (if one can receive that) that this thing taking place...of all seeming unpleasantness within, the recognition of which otherwise could cause despair...wrote. Even if it only be...to me.
It is "not the light's fault"...it is the light's...work. And though that period of its discovery and exposure is more unpleasant (than even perhaps the man has ever known in frustration) do not lose heart! The allowance for patience to have her perfect work is not without reward. And such a man wrote to another...not that the man would sense disqualification by what seems the most inconsistent discovery, or even an embarrassing admission, for the shame of sin is consumed by the very light that is at work to its exposing...as powerless over the man.
I am not ashamed to admit I am weakest of all, having seen such faithfulness demonstrated by Christ in times and matters past...as to even yet sometimes find himself assailed by such questions (and yes, even in the fears of doubt) that to himself he often appears bizarre. And I do appreciate those who have attained a greater steadfastness, show a better consistency, as those who give such a man hope. A man who needs...reminding.
How a thing that so often thinks that both itself (and others) should "know better"...really doesn't at all. How a man who might see lightning fall one day upon all that opposes...and the next find himself quivering in need of such great reminder of God's faithfulness...seems very odd.
But, a man might settle in such a place, learning to lean a bit more than he ever imagined he might...upon another. Trust someone...more than he trusts himself. It is very "odd" to him, this working that he once thought he saw all of, but in now he finds a welcome exchange.
Appear odd to himself that Christ appear normal.
Such is a very minor discomfort to be endured, lest he fall into the opposite.
And although I can see where that sounds like an argument against any or all peace or comfort of home; that reality of living with the odd a seeming presentation of all challenge or stress, of a seeming unsettlement, nevertheless it is always to the better.
I daresay it is only Christ who has made, and makes this known to me. I will not regale you with all the mayhem that ensued from a man like me, thinking he knew himself. Thinking he knew himself so well in every situation as to even predict and assure, (first to himself, and then to others) how he is, and how he will be.
You can see the folly of a bankrupt man issuing endless promissory notes, no? Even to himself. Actually always first to himself, thinking he enriched himself, and in such beguiling of that false economy...issuing them to others. I am this...and I will be this...I was "bankable". Like I said...what need to recount where such false accounting must lead?
Rightly to many in the faith, especially those strong in Christ, this is just so much beating of a dead horse. But I am weak, and though needy of those stronger, I also cannot deny I can relate (unless I seek to present myself a liar) to what shows itself in weakness.
And though I believe consistency to be a great strength, I see I was very weakest when I most presumed it to myself, not even able to imagine any other might possess it to my measure. I so easily saw every trip and fall as others were made aware they were not as (I believed) they thought themselves to be. But me? No, there was no situation I didn't consider myself equipped to. To myself I knew no limit unable to be either purchased or accomplished by issue of promise to myself.
To say this persisted even after confession of Jesus Christ, I cannot lay to His doing. I was not (and do not consider now myself) as fully aware of all that is in the truth of this confession...Jesus Christ is Lord. The significance of His singularity was not perceived to much measure, at all, in the assigning of absolute limit to all that is else to Him.
But I do believe that I can say with some assurance that the man enters an arena heretofore totally unknown to him in that confession. He may not know (as I have not known) just how deeply he is declaring his abdication of a place so deeply lusted for and coveted, that until that is being made known to him, he will continue thus. Claw must be turned to open hand.
And it matters not, in the all, to what measure a man accounts his own sincerity as deeply as he may plumb it, for here nothing can either add, nor detract. He may learn it is all of grace to his receiving, being allowed to agree with what is already settled in Heaven.
And it might appear the above is the most miserable confession, the most rancid of testimonies. The weakest (if at all) testimony of Jesus Christ imaginable. No one need receive it, may they find better. I have little care if all one sees is a reed blown to and fro, having so little root in himself...so little consistency.
I can testify of a grace found here, that even if it be of no consequence or benefit to any other...I find it has been O! so lovingly placed, recorded, declared...for one such as me. Even if only for one. Even if only...for me.
A dear one knew what would need comfort, what would so easily disqualify itself otherwise, what could not, in longing for a consistency, and not finding it in himself...would be then crushed by utter despairing in all hopelessness.
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Someone saw what was happening to me...someone saw what would happen in a man such as me, and someone wrote for my comfort and encouragement (even though it be strong reproof) seeing what danger to the soul as to a tipping might occur if one were not warned sternly, that the vexation, the perfect frustration (even) of yet encountering such inconsistency (as sin is totally inconsistent to Christ) is not inconsistent itself...to seeking to know Him.
There are no "mental gymnastics" that can establish the soul here. And I am not persuaded the man who wrote it wrote it as a from of "automatic writing", as though a pen were placed in his hand and he, merely thoughtless and mindless as though with eyes closed he scribed, and then opened his eyes to see what he had written.
No, I believe a man discovered in himself a provocation of such doubts, even such contradictions, even such things as would be called (to himself) sin in a measure so previously unknown, and of such depth as never appreciated...as not caused by Christ...but being flushed out of hiding, (so to speak) by that light he had received in allowance of his agreement.
And he was moved in all grace to set this down...even as a sort of confession (if one can receive that) that this thing taking place...of all seeming unpleasantness within, the recognition of which otherwise could cause despair...wrote. Even if it only be...to me.
It is "not the light's fault"...it is the light's...work. And though that period of its discovery and exposure is more unpleasant (than even perhaps the man has ever known in frustration) do not lose heart! The allowance for patience to have her perfect work is not without reward. And such a man wrote to another...not that the man would sense disqualification by what seems the most inconsistent discovery, or even an embarrassing admission, for the shame of sin is consumed by the very light that is at work to its exposing...as powerless over the man.
I am not ashamed to admit I am weakest of all, having seen such faithfulness demonstrated by Christ in times and matters past...as to even yet sometimes find himself assailed by such questions (and yes, even in the fears of doubt) that to himself he often appears bizarre. And I do appreciate those who have attained a greater steadfastness, show a better consistency, as those who give such a man hope. A man who needs...reminding.
How a thing that so often thinks that both itself (and others) should "know better"...really doesn't at all. How a man who might see lightning fall one day upon all that opposes...and the next find himself quivering in need of such great reminder of God's faithfulness...seems very odd.
But, a man might settle in such a place, learning to lean a bit more than he ever imagined he might...upon another. Trust someone...more than he trusts himself. It is very "odd" to him, this working that he once thought he saw all of, but in now he finds a welcome exchange.
Appear odd to himself that Christ appear normal.
Such is a very minor discomfort to be endured, lest he fall into the opposite.
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Madman
Senior Member
Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.
Jesus must be catholic.
Jesus must be catholic.
Madman
Senior Member
I believe your point was missed.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
If scripture is not for self interpretation, who is it given to for interpretation? Why should we even read it? Just let those old men of yore tell us what it said.
Maybe it's not for self interpretation but for Holy Spirit revelation/interpretation.
Maybe it's not for self interpretation but for Holy Spirit revelation/interpretation.
Madman
Senior Member
The Church
Israel
BANNED
yes, the Church...inclusive of a man who might write this:
"...and I think also that I have the Spirit of God." 1 Cor. 7:40
Madman
Senior Member
The church has final say. Matthew 18:17
Israel
BANNED
Isn't the Church all who are brought to acknowledge God alone through Christ has had the final say?
Madman
Senior Member
Paul was an Apostle of the Lord and yet still only a member of the body, he was not the church. We see in Acts the Jerusalem Council making decisions as a body. Let's not think that as individuals we make up the church.
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