It rained here cooled today.

Thread starter #1

gordon 2

Senior Member
"and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world has been condemned. I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth.For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you..."

Today being a new day, I would invite earnest comments on the verse above, from the will towards a genuine wholesome fellowship. It is up to you. I shall start.

First thing I learn from the verse is that I live in a world where the prince of it "has been condemned" by the appearance of the Messiah. It seems to suggest to me that what is wrong or tricked in this world is made plain by Jesus and his friends and that I can have a finer judgement of everything that is not right much better that had I lived before Jesus was born or known to me.

Second, Godly knowledge is progressive and due perhaps because we live in a world were the prince of it is condemned. We cannot bear to hear "it"... what God has much to tell us about himself and ourselves... or all of it at once, because although condemned the prince of this world still had great influence in our make up of how to interact with the world and our God.

And not only do we "grow" in godly knowledge if we continue in fellowship, but the world grows in godly knowledge through the centuries. It is cumulative. The Holy Spirit will/is guiding Christians into all truth individually and corporately-- in a cumulative fashion and it is like this through the individual's lifespan, but also it is cumulative in the life span of Christianity.

Freezing glass dropped into boiling water will break the glass. Perhaps we are as freezing glass due what we cleave to which is of the world-- even as saints! Seems God might think it better to warm us up before we fellowship into His light.

It might have been difficult for the people Jesus was addressing in this verse to understand that He would need to be sacrificed on the cross as a criminal, but it still is to some of us who believe today.

3ed point. The Holy Spirit speaks and declares " what is to come" and "what is Mine" and declares it to the friends of God and into the world. I can only assume due my personal experience that the Holy Spirit does this due to personal revelations, that is speaking to and through individual friends who have a common respect for the spirit of truth regards Jesus and God as best mortal men and women can express, but also the spirit declares through the church through the centuries and its ongoing teaching ministries, ( which includes bible study.)

4. If I somehow put all these ideas together and hope that at least more than 50% of them are of the truth in a Godly fashion in whole or in part, I cannot get discouraged that the Church sometimes ( even with regularity) might regress in practices or jump ahead of my understanding of things Godly. Or a good part of my faith must also be in relative hope that the Holy Spirit has spoken through the Church in the past, due its ministries and due the lives of rugged individuals unflinching in the understanding that even though not perfect, through the centuries the Holy Spirit " will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you"... within the Church.

5. Where individual congregations disagree on "what is to come" and on the differing manners on how to "hear" what the Holy Spirit hears can perhaps all be overcome by a reflection on what is God's purpose in the Messiah and Jesus stated purpose in the Holy Spirit. The reconciliation and fellowship in Him for us through our Lord Jesus should also be a reconciliation that through the Church, though imperfect and to the point of being at odds sometimes historically, that the Spirit has spoken and will speak again what He hears and will declare to us what is to come and that in the future He will declare what we "cannot yet bear to hear" today.
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Senior Member
Freezing glass dropped into boiling water will break the glass. Perhaps we are as freezing glass due what we cleave to which is of the world-- even as saints!
This is wisdom not to be discounted. We simply do not we? Is all "my (or any's) heat" for the Lord...really nothing more than the most tepid approach...saving to much of self, that all would be lost unless a stronger arm saves?

Yes. The Lord has told us so many things...even of "things to come" particularly pertaining to headwinds...opposing head way. "If they do this when the tree is green..."

There is both caution and encouragement...and perhaps we suffer needlessly in confusion by over heeding either by preference. do we know if the balance we hold is square to the Lord? "Perilous times"...and also "the earth shall be filled with the Glory of the Lord as the waters cover the seas".

A man may have hope of all smooth sailing ahead, in hope that this word of "such tribulation as the world has never seen, nor will see again" is already past. And God such a man he may have indeed already faced his greatest tribulation and trial...come through approved...and be able to say as Paul, or with Paul, in assurance "there is now a crown laid up for me!". For...if we forget the "once time" Paul no less said "If we, or an angel of heaven preach any other gospel..." leaving there the possibility (though God forbid!) "I myself may even be diabolically dissuaded "EVEN ME!".

It almost seems (to me at least) that the way to assurance is the full faced acknowledgement "I am not above being deceived". I am not above being "wrong about everything". We say, or may..."such a position is the most tenuous of all...what can be found of assurance in that?"

But this is where Paul also may have a word. "For we do not preach ourselves..."
The assurance is not of self and position...but of Christ's position always over all. not, nor can be deceived. Christ is naught but truth...even if I be shown a all. And if I may say, if my boldness in it seem over-reaching...this "place" cannot be occupied...except by grace. And such place does appear, and perhaps must if grace be for the apprehension...of such confusion as to be irresolvable. But here is where grace alone makes total sense...and perhaps the place where grace is likewise alone be seen. Where a man can trust in nothing "of himself". Even to the very point of distrust.

Those who have had One that place of no standing to one's self...have a "something" they know is not "manufactured". But, likewise they know...this doesn't "make them all"...for grace is ministered, as grace must be...without the merit of its deserving. So, any inference as to the elevation by such appearance (especially in regard to any other)...must be, and can only rightly seen to not lead to greater confusion by such false inference/presumption, (and grace be made of no sense)...for if we are always in that place of "being open and laid bare before Him with whom we have to do"...we also know He speaks "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy..."

Who then will direct the Lord's appearing?
Who will deny any venue He chooses?

And if anyone imagines they there a greater manifest denial of grace's nature...and reality?

In short...there is only One worthy of any esteem.

I grow tedious.
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Thread starter #3

gordon 2

Senior Member
Grace, ah grace. It is a war word to Christians. I have refused to go on the battlefields, on principle that in Christ the raising of mountian hunters was more in keeping with escorting to safety pilgrims sent over the mountain passes.

In any case, I have made peace with grace as a simple man might. I have not consulted the concordances, nor the fortifications et al. I have determined that by the grace of God towards man, I myself am forced to give grace to man also. Imperfectly yes. A person without spiritual grace is doomed spiritually-- but what if I cleared for the doomed a path to the other side, if I escorted others deserving and undeserving safely across a mountain range... if I escorted traveler? as I was once escorted? What might be the purpose of the Church?

Like the legend of Saint Christopher or one Menas said to have carried the child Jesus on his back--- I think of what some saints did similar for me. Carriers I knew of what? I could not see the child they carried until they also escorted me and then Christ appeared fully formed, a grown man and God. And now I also carry a baby with me...for myself and deserving and undeserving... that what crumb of grace I tame towards a pilgrim, some will know it fully formed.

Some mountain hunters I do esteem...their burden light... they escort some out of the world to our rare Kingdom leaving God to explain himself to his friends.
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Senior Member
I think I understand what you say.

Somewhere, somehow, in some way the "baby carrier" and baby are shown all of one.

The escort I see, even in imperfection (my imperfection of sight...not their imperfection of showing) in their help of me awakes in me this knowledge " are not from my side of the mountain!"

They look just like my townspeople, I would easily mistake them for my own townspeople...but it is plain they come from where I am wanting to go.

Why? What? How? What thing compels them to make that trip from "that side" to my own...just to

O! I have thrust hand and head inside to seek to discern "what's in it for them"?

It's the baby...of course. They get to carry the baby. Wherever He wants to go.