It's a wonderful death* !

StriperAddict

Senior Member
IT’S A WONDERFUL DEATH!*

“It’s a Wonderful Life” is a movie classic. The main character, George Bailey, is allowed to see what life would have been like for his family and hometown if he had never been born. I want to take an odd twist on that story.

Imagine what it would be like if Jesus had been born, but never CRUCIFIED.

Imagine if:
Jesus came to Earth
Lived a perfect life
Told us about the Father and the Kingdom
Chose his disciples and sent them out,
But then just went back to heaven without being crucified - without being raised from the dead.

Imagine what that would be like. Imagine trying to “live the Christian life” if Jesus had never been crucified.

Unfortunately, it is not hard to imagine at all. It is not hard to imagine because that is the way we often live. We lose sight of the cross, but still try to “live the Christian life.”

We do not live that way intentionally. We do not realize we are living that way. Living under the hex is when we try to do life with God as if Jesus lived and taught, but never died for us.

The great news in Bedford Falls and every other place is that Jesus Christ did not JUST come to Earth, live a perfect life, teach us about the Father and go back to heaven.

He was also crucified for us and as us. He took our weakness and sin and shame to the cross. He took the old way of religious effort to the cross.

If you keep asking God to forgive you,
If you keep trying to get closer to God,
If you keep trying to die to self,
If you keep trying to get more blessings from God,
If you keep fearing God’s judgment,
You are living as if the cross never happened.

Jesus Christ rose again and opened a NEW WAY of life with God! Christ now lives in us. On this side of the cross, He is our Christian life!

We do not live with God by rules and obligations on the outside. That was nailed to the cross. Now, Christ lives in us.

Do not try to do life with God as if the cross never happened, as if Jesus never died. Do not lose sight of the cross today. It’s a wonderful death!


*Adapted from chapter 6 of Breaking the Hex, Life With God After the Cross Killed Religion, by mediocre-selling authors Roger Fields and Jeff Fields. ? (Their words not mine! - Walter S.)
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Well I guess I'm a un apologetic gentile and so if ever I have offended someone here, pushed their unhappiness buttons... suck it up buttercups.

I keep asking God for forgiveness as my patience is not a comfort for all that is around me. Sometimes I catch myself with schemes of hate to the point of disregard for another's life. I fantasize torture even. My hate can be so strong for sinners worse then myself, sinners greater than myself with greater sins then my own and then I see other"s hate for me, how they hate me likewise.

I ask God for forgiveness cause the world's magnets can and do haul the iron in me and deceive me that I might stick with "good" cause a weapon in someone---yet I can shout to being, and I am, born again.

I hate governments and robbers who defy my government and my raids. I fear my fellow citizen more than any enemy, that when push comes to shove, by starving or even for envy and reason real or imagined, I know he'll come for me and my booty. And I make schemes for my cold hands.

I keep asking God for forgiveness however and so far my love and I are winning.
 
Last edited:

gordon 2

Senior Member
And,

When Paul has as his example God and Job it permits his declaration*, for if God let Satan tempt a righteous man out of his relationship with God, how much more could an unrighteous man be offered his fate with Satan with the possible outcome of his temptation towards ( in the direction of) his salvation.

4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5*hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord. 6Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven works through the whole batch of dough?…

In the case of Job or his children all that Satan could do was destroy flesh, we are not told that anyone's spirit was destroyed and therefore anyone's faith.

It seems that for Paul we are still mixed up in the mix up or interplay of good and evil, even the righteous or the saved, some in need of continued repentance or need to change.

Times of "refreshing" are sometimes required:

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,



For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
 

StriperAddict

Senior Member
Brothers, I know our arrival in Christ seems fleeting, seems like something we're trying to attain to. The completeness He speaks about is his indwelling Spirit. Nothing can take that away from you. That's the main goal of this message.

To The Humble Hearts seeking forgiveness I'd ask them to consider the words "it is finished". And no way would God himself take away our burdens over our many daily sins, but in the one-time offering all these, today's, yesterday's and tomorrow's sins have been met in Christ and cleansed. Forever. " their sins and their Lawless deeds I have taken away."

My own many daily confessions, sins and unfaithfulness? His life within cannot be undone, and I wouldn't want any believer to miss this for the world.

While despising ourselves sometimes we would do well not to despise the greatest offering of all, and rejoicefully consider His permanence and providence.

Peace.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Brothers, I know our arrival in Christ seems fleeting, seems like something we're trying to attain to. The completeness He speaks about is his indwelling Spirit. Nothing can take that away from you. That's the main goal of this message.

To The Humble Hearts seeking forgiveness I'd ask them to consider the words "it is finished". And no way would God himself take away our burdens over our many daily sins, but in the one-time offering all these, today's, yesterday's and tomorrow's sins have been met in Christ and cleansed. Forever. " their sins and their Lawless deeds I have taken away."

My own many daily confessions, sins and unfaithfulness? His life within cannot be undone, and I wouldn't want any believer to miss this for the world.

While despising ourselves sometimes we would do well not to despise the greatest offering of all, and rejoicefully consider His permanence and providence.

Peace.


It's a good thing I like you and count you a brother no less. :)

I think that possibly many people misunderstand forgiveness regards sin and the Jews especially regards sin offering in or tradition. We take things-notions for granted due to repeated facts about sin and forgiveness of sin in our traditions.

Now I have not checked this with the bible, but I'm told by Jews that animal sacrifice was for unknown sins committed and not for personal sin deliberately committed. Sinners who deliberately sinned could not offer a sacrifice to take away their sins. In fact they were not allowed anywhere near the inner temple where sacrifice was offered. In other words sinners wh0 live deliberately in sin or by sinning were not allowed to give sacrifice! The Jews were sticklers for purity anywhere near the temple and its offices... etc.

Therefore, if this is correct, when Christians say Jesus dies as per the sacrificial lamb for our individual sins or the sins that we are aware of, then this is a none sense and impossible because no lamb was ever offered in sacrifice by the Jews for an individual's deliberate sinning or living in sin.

I suggest that Christ on the cross, as per the lamb of God, provided for the forgiveness of original sin to all who believe that Jesus is the Son of God sent by the Father to save the world. The Cross is a catapult towards the remake of human life and has been a boon especially for gentiles for obvious reasons. The even of the Cross does not provide for sins present and future! It is NOT the means for forgiveness of present and future individual sin, but something else is provided for this purpose.

I believe or understand that authority was given to the Church to provide that an individual's deliberate sin can be forgiven and forgotten if someone genuinely repents. They can even commit that exact sin again and if they repent they can be forgiven all over again. This would be consistent with the remedy offered by the Jewish cult regards deliberate sin. I suggest to you that the cross does not remove personal or deliberate sin and that it takes a bit more than just the whisper of individual prayer. Jesus instituted the Church with this power. Shocking I know... :)

The problem is that like Judas you can run out of repentance time for personal sin(s). If the goal of a sinner is to get closer to God... the sky's the limit. And in this sense Jesus died on the cross, and resurrected from the dead that this is possible. In other words the cross is not the only item which purges sin in the makeup of a human being.

I'm honest with my belief with you... because like I say I count you as an honest person and a friend.

Now club me over the head Cain! :D

A Christian can say that Jesus died as the lamb sacrifice for original sin and this is true according to the Jews I have heard in that the lamb sacrifice was for unknown sin due to living in the fallen world. In other words sin due original sin. One's born again nature has original sin purged from it.... one could say and this is due the Cross.

To be forgiven deliberate sinning a Jew had to repent and seek forgiveness before any animal sacrifice could be given within the cult for any reason. His forgiveness entailed the ministry of the priests with specifics actions required...towards genuine repentance and forgiveness....

So if the Jews are correct about their religious practices for me to apply Jesus' death to it as a Christian means that Jesus died for Original Sin, sins of the past and sin that I might have committed unknowingly,,, only.

Now the Christian cult has a way to restore a sinful person to righteousness, just as the Jewish cult has. It requires repentance and conditions of restoration, just as it was with the Jews if we are going to stay in the givens of the forgiveness of sin in general--in the context of Judeo-Christian history the lamb without blemish, the cross and repentance.

Just as there are steps to being a Christian dependent on the candidate, there are steps to repentance and forgiveness dependent on the candidate... and the Church knows how to handle the steps apply it dependent on the make up of a sinner's personality. The motivations for repentance are important in forgiveness... for someone entrapped by the world. Few can get out of their enslavements by themselves... The church is not a go between between an individual and God, rather it is a go between between an individual and the world.
 
Last edited:

gordon 2

Senior Member
PS. The prayers of righteous man avail's much. And it is my two cents that repentance motivated due one's love of good ( God) is powerful.

So I'm not saying that all human beings on earth have to jump into anything in that one more church-assembly hop, descent or assent, retreat-revival might be the right one. Loving God might just cover Jews and Gentile-Christians into a new spiritual reality...we think we know, but don't.

As for other traditions... Christian scripture says ( relates) that Jesus was with the Hebrews in their desert travails. If this is the case, with who else Jesus might have been with through out time--what births are to come?
 
Last edited:

gordon 2

Senior Member
Peace or truce?

Perhaps it is in the "all in all" that peace might simply become life. I'm not sure even then.

I don't trust my mind to make peace with anyone. I have seen the limits of the mind and how like at the top of a tree it falls first and then lives only as a body. I don't trust my body to make peace--it lives by fight and flight mostly. I don't trust reasons-- reasons are cultural and so varied. I do not trust my soul, for easy can I sell it.

So maybe I might trust the "all in all" and my body, my mind and our reasons where they fit in most.


Yes so far the "all in all" is the term for peace... until it is not quite as Paul meant it-- and somebody points it out. Everything else has been pointed to and pointed out in the last two thousand yrs.... so I don't mind going there and point out the points previously pointed out with anyone pointing them out.

Thou shall not burst my balloon... said the clown of God who's performance was to reveal my extrovert his introvert. We love the best we can with what we got.


“Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk.”

I need Peter. Peter seems of great value to me. Peter is the source for my walk, not my life, but my walk. When someone discounts Peter... I suffer fight or flight.... as if my love was discounted. My running away is not peace, it is a truce.

I do not discount God's love in anyone.... did I?

Your turn.
 
Last edited:

StriperAddict

Senior Member
I'm covering older ground here, just before the last 2 posts;


When I was a kid and I read the Bible and I saw the word Law, I believed it referred to my local laws of the land. You know, “Don't break the speed limit,” “Don't steal from the convenience store,” “Don't shoot people.”

I was never taught the true context of Scripture. Mainly because nobody in my life knew what the New Covenant was.

The truth is, when we see the word Law in the Bible, it has nothing to do with our government nor how we live as citizens. It's describing the Law of Moses. 613 commandments, ten of which are the Ten Commandments.

Some things to remember about the Law:

1. The Law was between God and the people group whom Moses freed from slavery in Egypt, the Jews, the Hebrews (Ephes 2:12). Non-Jews, also known as Gentiles, were not even allowed to attempt to obey it.

2. The Law was a package deal. The Jews never diced it up into sections of "the ones they have to obey" like we have with the Ten Commandments (Deut 4:2, James 2:10, Gal 3:10). They had different categories (dietary, moral, wardrobe, ect.), but they had to keep all of them, perfectly (Matt 5:48). They could even “accidentally sin” because they couldn’t keep track of each one due to the list being so long.

3. For every commandment they broke, that was a sin. The only way to be forgiven was to present a healthy animal at the temple to be killed annually (Heb 9:22, 10:26-29). They never asked for forgiveness nor repeatedly confessed. Blood had to be shed for every transgression of the Law, every sin.

4. The Law was never made for those who are righteous because every human who was ever righteous simply believed God (Rom 1:17, 3:20, Gal 3:11, Heb 10:38).⁣ The Law was established to expose the unrighteousness of an unbelieving Jew (Rom 3:19, 5:20, 6:14).

You, believers in Christ, are righteous. You have no relationship with the Law. Only the unrighteous do, as well as those who are confused about their righteousness. Your relationship is with Jesus, not the Law.
Enjoy Him and rest.

-----

A good addition to the points of law, sin offering from:
www.mattmcmillen.com/newsletter
 

StriperAddict

Senior Member
The even of the Cross does not provide for sins present and future! It is NOT the means for forgiveness of present and future individual sin, but something else is provided for this purpose.

I believe or understand that authority was given to the Church to provide that an individual's deliberate sin can be forgiven and forgotten if someone genuinely repents.

That's giving the church institution way too much authority my friend.
In Matt 28:18 Jesus said, "all authority in heaven AND on EARTH has been given to Me" He then directed the 12 to go and make disciples, aka followers, believers in Christ, which is an impossibility without the upcoming filling of believers in Acts 2 of the holy Spirit.
*Being filled with the Spirit of Christ and declaring the gospel is the work of Father thru His body, the church. No less, no more.
*Being forgiven of ALL sin for all time and eternity is from the finished work of the only One who has the authority to do so!

I can strive for all I could never cause,
or rest in what is already mine in Christ,
but never both. Neither can the church.
 

StriperAddict

Senior Member
The law...though provoking of sin...is not itself sin, but even holy righteous and good.
Till then...or...if done apart from such a finely honed instrument (of Paul's mind)...even the treading near his argument could lead to much confusion.
It is why a Spirit revelation of what Paul discusses with the Law is so critical.
It is why the writer of Hebrews emphasized the New Covenant over Moses, in a God led move to proclaim the better, the easy yoke, above the fading glory of the Old.

Nevertheless, he is relentless to make the point...that a good thing given (holy righteous and good) will, when received by a *person "of sin" further provoke to such plainness the exceeding abundance of sin in that "*person" that only spiritual sight can resolve and untangle the relationship.
Yes.
The sting of death is sin,
And the strength of sin is the Law,
But thanks be to God, who ... opens eyes to see we are ... given the victory over sin ...
through and only by, our Lord Jesus Christ.


But He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.
Hebrews 10:12
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
" Mainly because nobody in my life knew what the New Covenant was."

I have no time just now to read this, but I will. In the mean time I read this quote above. Man I feel for you. I really, really can't imagine this or what it could be like. I'm hoping also that it is not a case of disagreement of what the New Covenant was, but that no one knew what it was period. I count my blessings that it was not the case for me, if I understand correctly and find it difficult that someone in the USA had no idea want the New Covenant was...but I guess it was as you say.
 
Last edited:

gordon 2

Senior Member
I'm covering older ground here, just before the last 2 posts;


When I was a kid and I read the Bible and I saw the word Law, I believed it referred to my local laws of the land. You know, “Don't break the speed limit,” “Don't steal from the convenience store,” “Don't shoot people.”

I was never taught the true context of Scripture. Mainly because nobody in my life knew what the New Covenant was.

The truth is, when we see the word Law in the Bible, it has nothing to do with our government nor how we live as citizens. It's describing the Law of Moses. 613 commandments, ten of which are the Ten Commandments.

Some things to remember about the Law:

1. The Law was between God and the people group whom Moses freed from slavery in Egypt, the Jews, the Hebrews (Ephes 2:12). Non-Jews, also known as Gentiles, were not even allowed to attempt to obey it.

2. The Law was a package deal. The Jews never diced it up into sections of "the ones they have to obey" like we have with the Ten Commandments (Deut 4:2, James 2:10, Gal 3:10). They had different categories (dietary, moral, wardrobe, ect.), but they had to keep all of them, perfectly (Matt 5:48). They could even “accidentally sin” because they couldn’t keep track of each one due to the list being so long.

3. For every commandment they broke, that was a sin. The only way to be forgiven was to present a healthy animal at the temple to be killed annually (Heb 9:22, 10:26-29). They never asked for forgiveness nor repeatedly confessed. Blood had to be shed for every transgression of the Law, every sin.

4. The Law was never made for those who are righteous because every human who was ever righteous simply believed God (Rom 1:17, 3:20, Gal 3:11, Heb 10:38).⁣ The Law was established to expose the unrighteousness of an unbelieving Jew (Rom 3:19, 5:20, 6:14).

You, believers in Christ, are righteous. You have no relationship with the Law. Only the unrighteous do, as well as those who are confused about their righteousness. Your relationship is with Jesus, not the Law.
Enjoy Him and rest.

-----

A good addition to the points of law, sin offering from:
www.mattmcmillen.com/newsletter

I think your understanding of the law is a bit biased by what some Christian groups have extracted from what Paul wrote. I would suggest that you study with a Jew or more than one to find out what the Law was or is. I think you will be surprised and will be able to say once I thought I knew what the Law was, but now I know something else.

I will add this understanding I have which I share and which is really poor and of course I might be wrong in this case, but I have this understanding of the Law that it was not a list of rules for the Jews as a way to be spiritual and most definitely it meant studying scripture for purposes of living a righteous life or the best life possible. The Law was the spiritual practice of the Jews to better themselves by studying scripture. Like Paul said about scripture it can equally said for the Jews who's study of the Law or the Torah as>>>>" All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, true an true furnished unto all good works." That is what the Law was for a Jew. And further what sacrifice for sin was for a Jew is not always what Christians have claimed.

Ask yourself where do I get my ideas of what the Law was as a spiritual model to live with as a Jew. I think many Christians have run away from what it was and use diverse interpretations of what Paul says about the Law.

The Law sent him (Paul) to capture Christians because they were heretics...and the Law was a killer. It conflicted with the commandments of Moses. And so for a young Pharisee with a super sensitive conscious... Jesus solved the problem.

"If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me."


Paul believed Moses and that the Law was being misapplied. The Law for Paul was not just what we tend to make it out to be. Jesus fulfilled the Law and that is where Paul was Paul.

What is the Law?

“Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” 37 He said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
--------------
4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One. 5And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6These words I am commanding you today are to be upon your hearts.…

I suggest that Paul had such a heart before he was a Christian. Such was the power of the Law for him. But what the Law sent him to do was against his heart.
 
Last edited:

gordon 2

Senior Member
That's giving the church institution way too much authority my friend.
In Matt 28:18 Jesus said, "all authority in heaven AND on EARTH has been given to Me" He then directed the 12 to go and make disciples, aka followers, believers in Christ, which is an impossibility without the upcoming filling of believers in Acts 2 of the holy Spirit.
*Being filled with the Spirit of Christ and declaring the gospel is the work of Father thru His body, the church. No less, no more.
*Being forgiven of ALL sin for all time and eternity is from the finished work of the only One who has the authority to do so!

I can strive for all I could never cause,
or rest in what is already mine in Christ,
but never both. Neither can the church.


Yes I understand you. I will suggest that the authority given to Jesus is also authority to delegate power and authority.

"Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins." I think James did not know Jesus as you do. But that's ok.

Never the less... I know you love God and I would hope you knew that I do. And you are to me my brother in Christ... though on some points we do disagree, I do not doubt your faith.
 

StriperAddict

Senior Member
" Mainly because nobody in my life knew what the New Covenant was."

I have no time just now to read this, but I will. In the mean time I read this quote above. Man I feel for you. I really, really can't imagine this or what it could be like. I'm hoping also that it is not a case of disagreement of what the New Covenant was, but that no one knew what it was period. I count my blessings that it was not the case for me, if I understand correctly and find it difficult that someone in the USA had no idea want the New Covenant was...but I guess it was as you say.
I'm also having time restraints. No worries.

The New Covenant is significantly different than the Old. This new way was marked by the cross, the chief dividing line with all things concerning being relationally made new by this covenant. THIS is not covered by many institutional churches, they would rather lap the 2 together and continue with the message of try harder ... and WITHOUT ANY connection to the Life of Christ expressed from within.

Seriously, when have you heard a message/sermon in the last years about "Christ in you, the hope of glory?"

When you have a moment, have a listen to Andrew's message on the Covenant(s), with perhaps more clarity than I could express by my slow typing (lol).

Peace..

 

StriperAddict

Senior Member
"Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins." I think James did not know Jesus as you do. But that's ok.
Most of the point I make on this forum is that the cross makes Christ known within ... where it counts. This is where ALL believers are united, and on the same playing field. GROWTH is left, the renewing of the minds to who Jesus is, what He's done for and to us, that is what each of us are learning together.

And yes, hold your breath (my return of your sarcasm!), ... upon believing in the work of the cross and the resurrections we are made as new as the ones who just first believed a moment ago, across this earth! There is no distinction to the INNER Life of the Spirit to Father and Son! Being born of the Spirit is as important to Jesus before a Jewish leader like Nicodemus as it is to ALL. See John 3:1-21 on the entire first look at the needful treasure Jesus was speaking to Nic about the New Birth, aka born of the Spirit, and "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God." John 1:12-13

"Faith comes by hearing", and hearing by the gospel preached. Yes, the church delivers this good news and indeed ,,, sinners by the message of the cross are turned "from the error of their ways" are saved and set free from "a multitude of sins" Amen!
 

StriperAddict

Senior Member
“Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” 37 He said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
--------------
4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One. 5And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6These words I am commanding you today are to be upon your hearts.…

I suggest that Paul had such a heart before he was a Christian. Such was the power of the Law for him. But what the Law sent him to do was against his heart.

Jesus audience here was Jews who, like us, couldn't keep these or the 613 commands of the law.
The law's purpose was clear ... slay the sinner!
But please don't stop there, this same "holy, righteous and good" law had it's work in bringing both Paul and other Jews to the relational victory of the resurrection!
It's a tutor, a help-meet with a purpose in having us know who He is that redeems us from sin and death!

1640737503148.png
 
Top