Jephthah's vow and sacrifice.

[bullethead]

and David, who was a man after God's own heart according to scripture, placed a warrior on the front lines and had the others abandon him there so he would be killed. There is no doubt that was premeditated murder. The Torah teaches against murder.
It is obvious that people are capable of breaking Torah law, even while professing to be a devout Jew.

Murder vs a human sacrifice to a God that does not accept them are two different things.

https://www.aish.com/atr/Jephthah-Sacrificing-Daughter.html

God Punished David for killing Uriah.

As King David approached Bahurim, a man from the same clan as Saul’s family came out from there. His name was Shimei son of Gera, and he cursed as he came out. 6 He pelted David and all the king’s officials with stones, though all the troops and the special guard were on David’s right and left. 7 As he cursed, Shimei said, “Get out, get out, you murderer, you scoundrel! 8 The Lord has repaid you for all the blood you shed in the household of Saul, in whose place you have reigned. The Lord has given the kingdom into the hands of your son Absalom. You have come to ruin because you are a murderer!”

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

nope. To remain a virgin was highly regarded. What was thought a shame was to marry and not have children.

And nowhere in this narrative do you find any hint that he man didn't do as he vowed, except for your thought that it was against Torah, so he didn't kill her. It has been pointed out a number of times that regardless of what Torah taught, people disobeyed it on a regular basis.

That is the whole work of the Torah, to show us that we can never be good enough to purchase our own salvation. Remember the quote... The law kills......

Lol. I don’t know where you got your theology, but I hope you kept the receipt! What’s it like to have the mindset that Torah was bad, when over and over it’s declared to be precious? So, you believe God freed the Israelites from bondage in Egypt only to put them under another bondage? Lol. God said that the Law was easy, but you are saying He’s wrong, right? ?

And, again, you’re wrong about it being a blessing for women to stay virgins! Where do you see any father telling his daughter “My prayer is that you never marry or have children”?? Lmbo. You’re cracking me up with this feeble attempt to rescue Jephthah’s daughter.

So, you believe that God gave Jephthah awesome victories so that he could then have Jephthah Murder his daughter? ?

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

if you read in context, Gen 37:26-29 you will understand the entire thread.

26 And Judah said unto his brethren, What profit is it if we slay our brother, and conceal his blood?
27 Come, and let us sell him to the Ishmeelites, and let not our hand be upon him; for he is our brother and our flesh. And his brethren were content.
28 Then there passed by Midianites merchantmen; and they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit, and sold Joseph to the Ishmeelites for twenty pieces of silver: and they brought Joseph into Egypt.



If you read in context the story of the sacrifice of Jepthah's daughter, it is clear the author intended the conclusion of the story to be that the girl was sacrificed.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

Also, you don’t have to explain Joseph being sold, as it is obvious from scripture. Joseph himself say that his brothers sold him. My point was to show that, contrary to what you said about ‘radicals’, one needs to look at context often rather than the “plain wording” of a verse, as you said

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Lol. I don’t know where you got your theology, but I hope you kept the receipt! What’s it like to have the mindset that Torah was bad, when over and over it’s declared to be precious? So, you believe God freed the Israelites from bondage in Egypt only to put them under another bondage? Lol. God said that the Law was easy, but you are saying He’s wrong, right? ?

And, again, you’re wrong about it being a blessing for women to stay virgins! Where do you see any father telling his daughter “My prayer is that you never marry or have children”?? Lmbo. You’re cracking me up with this feeble attempt to rescue Jephthah’s daughter.

So, you believe that God gave Jephthah awesome victories so that he could then have Jephthah Murder his daughter? ?

can you give scripture that says the law is easy. From what I read, the law is death, but grace is life. The law only points out that mankind can't be righteous on his own, and that he needs grace.

As to the sacrifice of Japhath's daughter, in the broad sense, it really makes no difference to me. The scripture is clear to me that he offered her as a sacrifice. If you wish to read something into the scripture that I don't see... so be it.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

can you give scripture that says the law is easy. From what I read, the law is death, but grace is life. The law only points out that mankind can't be righteous on his own, and that he needs grace.

? let’s see. God tells Israel in Deut 30 (pretty much the whole chapter, but specifically verses 11-14) that it’s easy - and Paul requotes this in Romans 10.

I John 5:3 John tells us that it’s easy and it’s how we show God love

Jesus says that His yoke and burden are easy. (He said His doctrine and teachings were from the Father)

Btw, Deut 30 is prophetic and deals with us…. The end times. He says that Israel (us) would return, in the end, to obeying Him from their heart

 

[NE GA Pappy]

? let’s see. God tells Israel in Deut 30 (pretty much the whole chapter, but specifically verses 11-14) that it’s easy - and Paul requotes this in Romans 10.

I John 5:3 John tells us that it’s easy and it’s how we show God love

Jesus says that His yoke and burden are easy. (He said His doctrine and teachings were from the Father)

Btw, Deut 30 is prophetic and deals with us…. The end times. He says that Israel (us) would return, in the end, to obeying Him from their heart

if keeping the law is so easy, why don't you do it? Why would you need Jesus to come and die as a perfect sacrifice, if it is so easy to keep the law and get into heaven that way.

Even Paul says in Romans 7:15-20 that he does what he hates, but he can't do the things he knows are right.

Obeying the law is easy? Really?

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

if keeping the law is so easy, why don't you do it? Why would you need Jesus to come and die as a perfect sacrifice, if it is so easy to keep the law and get into heaven that way.

Even Paul says in Romans 7:15-20 that he does what he hates, but he can't do the things he knows are right.

Obeying the law is easy? Really?

Yep, it sure is! (Or are you calling God - and John - a liar? Lol). I find it very easy! Resting on the sabbath? Easy. Honoring my mother and father? Easy. Etc etc. when I fail, THATS where grace comes in! Grace isn’t a license to sin

Paul also says in Romans 7 that He loves the Law. ;-) Jesus also says that we will be great in heaven by keeping them. What do you say, though, that makes one great in heaven?

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Yep, it sure is! (Or are you calling God - and John - a liar? Lol). I find it very easy! Resting on the sabbath? Easy. Honoring my mother and father? Easy. Etc etc. when I fail, THATS where grace comes in! Grace isn’t a license to sin

Paul also says in Romans 7 that He loves the Law. ;-) Jesus also says that we will be great in heaven by keeping them. What do you say, though, that makes one great in heaven?

if it is so easy, then why, in all the history of mankind, has NO ONE been able to keep the law, except for Jesus? Billions upon billions upon billions of attempts, but only one successful? Doesn't sound real easy to me

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

if it is so easy, then why, in all the history of mankind, has NO ONE been able to keep the law, except for Jesus? Billions upon billions upon billions of attempts, but only one successful? Doesn't sound real easy to me

That’s because you have the mindset that, if you can’t keep it perfectly, you should throw in the towel. Lol. So many examples in the Bible of how that thinking is corrupt. II Peter 3:15-17 comes to mind. Also Paul, late in his life in Acts 21, was still keeping the law, even though everyone was lying and saying that he wasn’t. Lol. (Acts 21:24)

Why would the Lord ask us over and over to keep the commandments if He would only accept our efforts if they were perfect? ? I John makes it clear that IF WE SIN He is faithful to forgive us when we confess. I John also tells us that keeping the commandments is easy (again, are you saying that God and John are wrong?) and that it’s how we show God love.

Rev 12:17 says that the devil hates Christians that keep the commandments. You’re saying that there is no one out there for him to hate since no one can keep it perfectly? ?

 

[Artfuldodger]

That’s because you have the mindset that, if you can’t keep it perfectly, you should throw in the towel. Lol. So many examples in the Bible of how that thinking is corrupt. II Peter 3:15-17 comes to mind. Also Paul, late in his life in Acts 21, was still keeping the law, even though everyone was lying and saying that he wasn’t. Lol. (Acts 21:24)

Why would the Lord ask us over and over to keep the commandments if He would only accept our efforts if they were perfect? ? I John makes it clear that IF WE SIN He is faithful to forgive us when we confess. I John also tells us that keeping the commandments is easy (again, are you saying that God and John are wrong?) and that it’s how we show God love.

Rev 12:17 says that the devil hates Christians that keep the commandments. You’re saying that there is no one out there for him to hate since no one can keep it perfectly? ?

How does Acts 21:25 fit? It seems like it separates Gentiles.
“As for the Gentile believers, they should do what we already told them in a letter: They should abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.”

It's almost like Paul preached and acted differently among the Jews than he did around the Gentiles.

Paul claims loyalty to the Law while at the same time evangelizing the Gentiles and teaching them they are not under the Law.

Maybe he was like the river ferry operator in The Outlaw Josey Wales, changing customs to best fit in for teaching.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

That’s because you have the mindset that, if you can’t keep it perfectly, you should throw in the towel.

nope. I am just self aware that I am unable to keep the law, just as you are and everyone else in the past has not been able to keep

Why would the Lord ask us over and over to keep the commandments if He would only accept our efforts if they were perfect?

He gave the commandments so that even stupid blind folk like me could see that they will never measure up to the standard of perfection, making this

? I John makes it clear that IF WE SIN He is faithful to forgive us when we confess.

necessary for us to met His standard.

Rev 12:17 says that the devil hates Christians that keep the commandments.

Satan hates us all, christians, non-christians, atheist, hindus, buddists and anyone else. It is his desire that everyone would spend eternity in ****

 

[Artfuldodger]

Romans 8:2-4
2 For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

"For what the law was powerless to do" As far as I know "the Law" never could do. I don't think Jesus was an afterthought to the Law but God's plan.

Yet how does one walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh if he doesn't keep the Law?
It's like Paul keeps adding something back somewhat related to the Law. Paul gives us the long sin list that will keep us out of the Kingdom but then says "and such were some of you."
"Everything is permissible," but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible," but not everything is edifying.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

How does Acts 21:25 fit? It seems like it separates Gentiles.
“As for the Gentile believers, they should do what we already told them in a letter: They should abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.”

It's almost like Paul preached and acted differently among the Jews than he did around the Gentiles.

Paul claims loyalty to the Law while at the same time evangelizing the Gentiles and teaching them they are not under the Law.

Maybe he was like the river ferry operator in The Outlaw Josey Wales, changing customs to best fit in for teaching.

Acts 21:25 is a repeat of the Acts 15 decision; that Gentiles - who knew nothing of Gods Torah - would start out with those 4, then learn each sabbath, as is stated in Acts 15:21. Very few preachers read past Acts 15:20. Lol

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

nope. I am just self aware that I am unable to keep the law, just as you are and everyone else in the past has not been able to keep

He gave the commandments so that even stupid blind folk like me could see that they will never measure up to the standard of perfection, making this
necessary for us to met His standard.



Satan hates us all, christians, non-christians, atheist, hindus, buddists and anyone else. It is his desire that everyone would spend eternity in ****

Where does it say that Satan hates us all? I showed specific scripture that states that he hates believers like me, but where does it say - other than in theology - that the devil hates everyone?

Did God and John lie when they said that keeping the commandments was easy and not a burden? Even John, after telling us that it was easy, tells us that there’s grace for when we fail. Since Christ redeemed us from the curse of failures, we are free to obey without fear of the punishment.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Where does it say that Satan hates us all? I showed specific scripture that states that he hates believers like me, but where does it say - other than in theology - that the devil hates everyone?

Did God and John lie when they said that keeping the commandments was easy and not a burden? Even John, after telling us that it was easy, tells us that there’s grace for when we fail. Since Christ redeemed us from the curse of failures, we are free to obey without fear of the punishment.

Satan hates us all because we are made in the image of God himself. Anyone that would want every person ever born to share in eternal ****ation with him must hate all those people, or maybe you think Satan is a wizard of love and compassion.

 

[StriperAddict]

The law was 'perfect' but it made no man perfect. We walk by faith not sight. If you believe the same Spirit of Christ that raised Him from the dead lives in you then that's a relational reality (sorry for the tongue twister). As if to say the Spirit will never "lead" you to sin, and will forever work to show you that sin is not your nature anyway.
Want proof?, well when you walk after the Spirit (faith, trust, dependence on His life) it is fulfilling in the soul, correct? And isn't the opposite true, that when we walk after the flesh (still IN the Spirit btw, but that's for another discussion), then we suffer under the earthly consequences of such a walk, even, and especially when it's fueled by religious zealotry, aka the hampster wheel of keeping up with the knowledge of good and evil, aka, becoming as God, which never worked for Adam and we'd do well to be convinced it won't work for us.

Humbling, tough truth to swallow for legalists, and those bent on the treadmill of self sufficiency. Yoke easy, burden light? You bet, when His Life within is no longer transactional (Moses, commandments, law) but FUNCTIONALLY RELATIONAL out of the simplicity and purity of devotion in Christ FROM the Spirit of Life, not for.

Peace out.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

The law was 'perfect' but it made no man perfect. We walk by faith not sight. If you believe the same Spirit of Christ that raised Him from the dead lives in you then that's a relational reality (sorry for the tongue twister). As if to say the Spirit will never "lead" you to sin, and will forever work to show you that sin is not your nature anyway.
Want proof?, well when you walk after the Spirit (faith, trust, dependence on His life) it is fulfilling in the soul, correct? And isn't the opposite true, that when we walk after the flesh (still IN the Spirit btw, but that's for another discussion), then we suffer under the earthly consequences of such a walk, even, and especially when it's fueled by religious zealotry, aka the hampster wheel of keeping up with the knowledge of good and evil, aka, becoming as God, which never worked for Adam and we'd do well to be convinced it won't work for us.

Humbling, tough truth to swallow for legalists, and those bent on the treadmill of self sufficiency. Yoke easy, burden light? You bet, when His Life within is no longer transactional (Moses, commandments, law) but FUNCTIONALLY RELATIONAL out of the simplicity and purity of devotion in Christ FROM the Spirit of Life, not for.

Peace out.

why some people choose to live under the law instead of under grace, I can't understand. Why would someone choose to live a life of seeking approval by maintaining obligations that they think are obtainable.

I would much rather life my life with the understanding that I am loved. I am accepted and I am part of God's family. There is nothing I can do that would make God love me more, and there is nothing I can do that will make God love me less. (no, that is not a license to do anything I want whenever I want. My desire to have a relationship with the King encourages me to do things that reinforce that relationship.)

as one guy I know says... If God has a refrigerator, my picture is on the door.

 

[StriperAddict]

why some people choose to live under the law instead of under grace, I can't understand. Why would someone choose to live a life of seeking approval by maintaining obligations that they think are obtainable.

I would much rather life my life with the understanding that I am loved. I am accepted and I am part of God's family. There is nothing I can do that would make God love me more, and there is nothing I can do that will make God love me less. (no, that is not a license to do anything I want whenever I want. My desire to have a relationship with the King encourages me to do things that reinforce that relationship.)

as one guy I know says... If God has a refrigerator, my picture is on the door.

Amen, beautiful.

I think the answer is that grace provides no "safety net" and the religious are afraid of it. A believer either knows he is loved and walks from his true Source, or mixes that love with how well he does the Christian rig - in his own strength, which makes for misery every time.

 

[gordon 2]

The fact that you are loved because God loves you comes from a religious reading and interpretation of scripture. A man needs no special spirit to know this. And this fact comes from the repeated indoctrinating preaching that " God so loved the world He gave his only son." and " Old Pharaoh, let my people go!" It comes from being religious, It comes from understanding that Jesus grew in wisdom and stature and so it must be so for yourself. It comes from the fact that Jesus like his family was religious and so it is with you. It must be from the fact the Jesus quoted scripture and so your need too.


However the fact is that you love comes from God. It is not difficult to know I am loved by God. It is more difficult to Do! from God's love. And yet having received His very heart as mine, to love requires work. It requires preparations. It requires execution.

These schemes of pointing out the polarity of " the law" and the " religious" vesus "Grace" seem so to the side of what a Christian is. It seems to me a take up of a polemic that Paul would take when he points out how different he is as a Pharisee and as a Christian. Knowing that God loved him and that he was of a chosen people would cause Paul to hunt down blasphemy and Christians so that they might be put to death all in the name of the law and righteousness. But as a Christian he could not hate the blasphemer, rather he was left to even love him.

So as a Pharisee, as a young man, doing his duty, Paul hunted down Christ Jesus the prince of blasphemers and when he found Jesus :


"And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [5] And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."

And hopefully you know the rest of the story how Paul became a man that loved inwardly and how difficult it is to do this, yet there is no going back. Hopefully you know this also as Paul got to know it and to love be it difficult is a no brainer, no law degree required, no understanding that you are to God special purpose and so of the elect--- no bible verse assembly required-- no grace vs the law polemics.

Love is not the sun shining on you, rather it is the son shining from you. Maybe... Maybe like I say I have a hard time with the age old bromide that there are religious spirits all around us... that need a law vs grace lecture now and then that somehow is supposed to get under the religious spirit's skin and work its transforming powers to convict. Hum! Here comes Paul the Pharisee! Ticked off at the Pharisees. Here come the judge. Like Paul this is frustrating... and this kicking against this and that.

Law versus grace is perhaps the fuel of ****... to my heart's leaning. Give these two a shove a bit more than Paul's musings and strike a match. That's just plain old, old style religion. Somehow this ain't good enough for me. The heart that my religious observances feed is picky about what goes in.