Jesus 101- Church Attendance is Not a Priority

[LittleDrummerBoy]

If I understand your video / comments; the Sunday meeting at a specific building isn`t relevant as long as you`re assembling yourselves together with like minded believers? I can agree here.

... I am not following you telling people it is ok to find themselves in the duck blind on Sunday morning and "forsake themselves from assembling together".

When I'm fishing or hunting on a Sunday morning, it is because I have taken care to give due effort to assembling on other days of the week - often the mid-week service, a Sunday evening service, or a Sat service. The "regular" meeting day for Messianic Jews is the Shabbat (Sat), and they have often welcomed me.

But you'd also have a hard time making the case, that a fishing boat or duck blind is an unacceptable meeting place, since Jesus said, "wherever two or more are gathered ..." and he also gave several notable examples of important gatherings on fishing boats.

Ignorance, fear, the exact same reason those churches in Hall County closed. These times are the exceptions not the rule. My church didn't close...

Once again you are talking about the exception not the rule.

You dodged the question, "Can you name 5 churches in Hall County that didn't close?" If there weren't five open churches in a county with hundreds, it seems that closing was more the rule than the exception. Once we found one, we maintained Sunday attendance, but we had to drive to a different county to do it.

So far as the laity administering the sacraments, that is another topic.

So I am not part of the "Royal Priesthood"? (1 Peter 2:9) On each occasion where I have administered communion or baptized, I have explicit permission from the ordained leadership of my church.

LDB, you are a very poor religious example.

Thank you.

I was called just about everything but a child of God last year because I said it was ok if you laid off from attending church for a little while back when we didn't know as much about Covid.

For me, there is a key distinction between recognizing the believer's freedom to act according to their faith and conscience and the responsibilities of elders to keep watch over the flock "as men who must give an account." It may have been possible to close church doors and maintain adequate shepherding, but a lot of shepherding failures corresponded to the period of church closures.

It is difficult to receive the sacraments without a priest.

I am a priest, of the order of Melchizedek (Jesus.) Jesus is the High Priest of the order. Baptized believers are the subservient priests of the order.

I read you’re posts every now and then and all you seem to do is try to make the word of God fit what you like in life. Drinking and now not going to church.

I am happy to discuss any specifics regarding specific cases and Scriptures. But consider whether your position is really based in Scripture, or in your denominational "nullifying the Word of God for the sake of your tradition." I actually held the traditional Southern Baptist view of both drinking and church attendance for decades. But as the Lord taught me, "Do not go beyond what is written" I am working though my repentance toward what the Bible actually says rather than what my denominations told me it means. "What does the Bible say?" is my standard for any issue.

 

[Madman]

You dodged the question, "Can you name 5 churches in Hall County that didn't close?" If there weren't five open churches in a county with hundreds, it seems that closing was more the rule than the exception. Once we found one, we maintained Sunday attendance, but we had to drive to a different county to do it.

I dodged no question, I do not live in Hall county. I made sure my church stayed open. I believe that others should have done the same with their churches.

It seems you did not.

So I am not part of the "Royal Priesthood"? (1 Peter 2:9) On each occasion where I have administered communion or baptized, I have explicit permission from the ordained leadership of my church.

What is the "Royal Priesthood" described in 1 Peter 2:9? You may wish to define what that is.

It sounds to me as thought the "ordained leadership" of your church may have given you permission to perform duties that they themselves do not have the authority to give.

I am a priest, of the order of Melchizedek (Jesus.) Jesus is the High Priest of the order. Baptized believers are the subservient priests of the order.

You may want to rethink this. Holy Scripture does not say that Melchizedek and Jesus are the same, Melchizedek was a prefiguring of Jesus yet we do not know much more about him.

You can see in Hebrews 7:3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.
The writer of Hebrews says he resembles the Son of God, not that he is the Son of God.
Jesus is like Melchizedek but he is not Melchizedek, or as I assume you are saying that Melchizedek was a Christophany but that is not taught in Holy Scripture.

You may want to heed this advice,

But as the Lord taught me, "Do not go beyond what is written" I am working though my repentance toward what the Bible actually says rather than what my denominations told me it means. "What does the Bible say?" is my standard for any issue.

 

[Madman]

LDB

As I have said, you and I will most likely not agree on much of this, but it is ok by me. I only asked that brothers in Christ, which I believe we are, should be able to have these discussions and seriously think through the ideas.

I offer much of this up for thought because very few people in the south know what the Catholic faith is they only know what they see on the internet.

 

[Madman]

Before one goes "putting their faith in the Church" it might be suggested one read a few chapters of Revelation.

I know of no one who puts their faith "in the Church". Do you?

The church "meeting" is where faith is exercised in the coming together of those who exercise faith individually...not its source.

And where the graces of God are dispensed through the sacraments.

 

[Madman]

Observing Sunday as the sabbath

The New Testament church met on Sunday to celebrate the resurrection of Christ from the dead. Many of the shadows of the Old Testament were no longer binding.

Col. 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in regard to food or drink or in respect to festival, or a new moon or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

 

[Spotlite]

When I'm fishing or hunting on a Sunday morning, it is because I have taken care to give due effort to assembling on other days of the week - often the mid-week service, a Sunday evening service, or a Sat service. The "regular" meeting day for Messianic Jews is the Shabbat (Sat), and they have often welcomed me.

But you'd also have a hard time making the case, that a fishing boat or duck blind is an unacceptable meeting place, since Jesus said, "wherever two or more are gathered ..." and he also gave several notable examples of important gatherings on fishing boats.

While you think you have taken care of things on other days; the county, local community, family / friends of the congregation in most places just show up on the regularly scheduled meetings - maybe God had other plans outside of yours that involved those regular meetings for those folks??

I never said a duck blind isn’t an acceptable location. If that’s where your congregation meets, so be it.

since Jesus said, "wherever two or more are gathered ..."

A deeper study concerning the body of Christ is recommended.

You started your video out with “Church attendance is not a priority in the Kingdom of God”

“But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.”

Scripture disagrees with not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together as one buddy, He set us all there for a purpose.

If the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee, that also means the hand can’t say to the eye you don’t need me………

A planned group vacation / trip is one thing…….just making it convenient to satisfy flesh of a couple is another. Just because you have two or more agreeing on something doesn’t mean it’s of God - two rapist can agree to rape a woman.

 

[LittleDrummerBoy]

I dodged no question, I do not live in Hall county. I made sure my church stayed open. I believe that others should have done the same with their churches.

It seems you did not.

Of course I did. You just think the only valid expression of "my church" was the brick and mortar building. My boat stayed open. My table stayed open. Our small group continued to meet. My wife and I continued to provide public worship opportunities. We were less successful in keeping the brick and mortar building we had been meeting at on Sundays from closing it's doors.

Why do you prioritize the brick and mortar building so highly above things more likely within the power of a single household?

 

[LittleDrummerBoy]

While you think you have taken care of things on other days; the county, local community, family / friends of the congregation in most places just show up on the regularly scheduled meetings - maybe God had other plans outside of yours that involved those regular meetings for those folks??

I never said a duck blind isn’t an acceptable location. If that’s where your congregation meets, so be it.

We now are part of the livestreaming congregation of WFR Church where Phil and Al Robertson are elders (Remember Duck Dynasty?). The duck blind is an explicitly approved meeting location. Our livestream congregation extends to all 50 states and many nations. The leadership all seems content with regular remote attendance and the occasional visit in-person. (We visited in-person earlier this year.)

We fellowship with other members through electronic media regularly through the week and enjoy more frequent and real two-way communication with other members and leadership regularly - more frequently in my experience than most Sunday in-person attendees in Hall County churches. We frequently address prayer requests, encouragement needs, and so on. There is no shortage of regular meetings, it's just not in person, and often not on Sunday mornings.

 

[Madman]

Of course I did. You just think the only valid expression of "my church" was the brick and mortar building. My boat stayed open. My table stayed open. Our small group continued to meet. My wife and I continued to provide public worship opportunities. We were less successful in keeping the brick and mortar building we had been meeting at on Sundays from closing it's doors.

Why do you prioritize the brick and mortar building so highly above things more likely within the power of a single household?

Very good then. Why did you close the doors to the building and meet outside? When I said "closed" that was all I meant.

I have met in fields, tents, store fronts, and cathedrals. I believe you were the one who used to terminology of churches "closing".

We kept our doors open because we refused let the .gov dictate the things that are of God.

 

[Madman]

We now are part of the livestreaming congregation of WFR Church where Phil and Al Robertson are elders (Remember Duck Dynasty?). The duck blind is an explicitly approved meeting location. Our livestream congregation extends to all 50 states and many nations. The leadership all seems content with regular remote attendance and the occasional visit in-person. (We visited in-person earlier this year.)

We fellowship with other members through electronic media regularly through the week and enjoy more frequent and real two-way communication with other members and leadership regularly - more frequently in my experience than most Sunday in-person attendees in Hall County churches. We frequently address prayer requests, encouragement needs, and so on. There is no shortage of regular meetings, it's just not in person, and often not on Sunday mornings.

Online church doesn't work for those with liturgical/sacramental forms of worship.
It does ok for midweek sunday school, Bible class etc.

 

[LittleDrummerBoy]

Very good then. Why did you close the doors to the building and meet outside?

I didn't close any doors. That was a decision made at a higher level. When the doors were closed and all the small groups closed, we requested, and received permission to keep our small group going - our request was approved as long as we made it clear we were not operating under the auspices of the larger church. The small group met twice weekly while the larger church and all the other small groups were shut down. (One or two may have kept going in an unofficial capacity, as ours did.) When the church and small groups re-opened many months later, we handed the small group back over to its official "church-approved" leadership. A few months ago the small group was recognized as the healthiest and largest in the church. We tried to be faithful with what we could to continue meeting in the venues that were within our ability to keep open.

We kept our doors open because we refused let the .gov dictate the things that are of God.

I agree. But to tell others "you need to be in a local church" (physically) you need to be able to point to a church near them that also refuses to let the .gov dictate the things that are of God. Since I was unable to recommend churches that remained open near me (Hall County), it became clear that I would be a hypocrite to have the position of telling other Christians that "you need to be in a local church" (physically).

Online church doesn't work for those with liturgical/sacramental forms of worship.
It does ok for midweek sunday school, Bible class etc.

Sure it does. The point of failure is the denial of the priesthood of the believer and the ability of every believer to follow the instruction of Christ to "do this in remembrance of me." The point of failure is the unBiblical notion that "two or three" gathered in Christ's name are insufficient. That somehow a specially appointed leader needs to be there with them physically to perform certain functions in a valid manner. Why can't a father lead communion for his household? Is every Christian father not a priest and king in his own home?

 

[Madman]

I didn't close any doors. That was a decision made at a higher level. When the doors were closed and all the small groups closed, we requested, and received permission to keep our small group going - our request was approved as long as we made it clear we were not operating under the auspices of the larger church. The small group met twice weekly while the larger church and all the other small groups were shut down. (One or two may have kept going in an unofficial capacity, as ours did.) When the church and small groups re-opened many months later, we handed the small group back over to its official "church-approved" leadership. A few months ago the small group was recognized as the healthiest and largest in the church. We tried to be faithful with what we could to continue meeting in the venues that were within our ability to keep open.

SOMEONE closed the doors. Our clergy knew that corporate worship and the dispensing of the sacraments to the saints was vital and .gov was not going to stop it. No one had to come but the doors were open and we were full.
the point is whatever building you met at was closed and your body broke up to meet other places. We did not.

I agree. But to tell others "you need to be in a local church" (physically) you need to be able to point to a church near them that also refuses to let the .gov dictate the things that are of God. Since I was unable to recommend churches that remained open near me (Hall County), it became clear that I would be a hypocrite to have the position of telling other Christians that "you need to be in a local church" (physically).

The body needs to meet as one and the church needs to be open for them to do that. I am not in your denomination and have no say so in what is open and what is not that is your responsibility as a leader in your particular denomination.

Sure it does. The point of failure is the denial of the priesthood of the believer and the ability of every believer to follow the instruction of Christ to "do this in remembrance of me." The point of failure is the unBiblical notion that "two or three" gathered in Christ's name are insufficient. That somehow a specially appointed leader needs to be there with them physically to perform certain functions in a valid manner. Why can't a father lead communion for his household? Is every Christian father not a priest and king in his own home?

The short answer to your questions are no. A father, unless he is a priest, cannot consecrate Holy Communion, Protestantism has so butchered the definitions of theological words their communicants do not know the meaning. The context of a royal priesthood is a calling through Peter to be a Holy people, one that points people to God, a father should so direct his family, but not all levels of priests are the same. You are a husband and father, do you have the authority to forgive sins? If you cannot forgive sins why would you believe you have the authority to consecrate Holy Communion?

I would argue that this belief in "sameness" is what has so fractured the body.

We can see in Holy Scripture the different levels of authority that different men were given by Christ and the Church follows that pattern today.


Once again we are so far apart theologically on his topic I do not believe it can be resolved on this thread. I would enjoy a few one question threads that could be discussed and even if not agreed upon theologically, could be understood.

I have my beliefs of Protestantism perhaps those could be corrected.

 

[brutally honest]

When I'm fishing or hunting on a Sunday morning, it is because I have taken care to give due effort to assembling on other days of the week - often the mid-week service, a Sunday evening service, or a Sat service. The "regular" meeting day for Messianic Jews is the Shabbat (Sat), and they have often welcomed me.

But you'd also have a hard time making the case, that a fishing boat or duck blind is an unacceptable meeting place, since Jesus said, "wherever two or more are gathered ..." and he also gave several notable examples of important gatherings on fishing boats.

rationalization
[ˌraSH(ə)n(ə)ləˈzāSH(ə)n, ˌraSH(ə)n(ə)līˈzāSH(ə)n]

NOUN

1. the action of attempting to explain or justify behavior or an attitude with logical reasons, even if these are not appropriate.
   "most people are prone to self-deceptive rationalization" · "they justify themselves with ingenious rationalizations"

 

[SemperFiDawg]

My boat was open, and the church met there for prayer, fellowship, edification, and teaching. My dinner table was also open for all of the above and communion as well. Since traditionally ordained elders were not offering to anoint with oil and pray, the Lord told me I could, and I did.

The ONE underlying motif common to every thread you start.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I was called just about everything but a child of God last year because I said it was ok if you laid off from attending church for a little while back when we didn't know as much about Covid.

Yeah. It's easy to get on a high horse if it has no legs. Been there. Done that.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I know a few dead people that would still be alive if they had laid off the church for awhile last year. And quite a few more that wouldn't owe tens of thousands in medical bills. Ain't no Jesus in that.

I'm in disagreement with you on that Brother. No one made them go to Church. My opinion at the time and to this day is the Government has no business closing churches. My Church did close the doors and went online but it was a decision made by our pastor.. My knee-jerk reaction was to be against it, until I spoke to him. His reasoning was simple and out of love. We have a good many older people and he said he couldn't live with himself if something happened to one of them. I was wrong in my knee-jerk opinion, and I'll admit it. Today, we know a whole lot more about the virus and things are different. Some of the older people in our church did die from Covid, but it wasn't contracted at church as it was closed. Additionally, at this point people have all made their personal decisions on what they will and won't do and where they will and won't go, but I stand by that it's always been a personal decision.

 

[The Original Rooster]

Yeah. It's easy to get on a high horse if it has no legs. Been there. Done that.

Not sure what you mean but ok then.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

Not sure what you mean but ok then.

Us people in the church are real quick to get on a high horse and look down on even others in the church and other Christians. I voted for the Constitution Party Candidate for President on Trumps first run. Because of his comments about grabbing women's privates, I couldn't, in good conscience vote for him. I had people in the church that told me I needed to find another church. I'd been going there 20 years.

 

[The Original Rooster]

Us people in the church are real quick to get on a high horse and look down on even others in the church and other Christians.

Yep, me too. Guilty as charged. Been there and done it myself. I TRY to understand a person's intentions instead of just words alone because words and actions can be misinterpreted.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I read you’re posts every now and then and all you seem to do is try to make the word of God fit what you like in life. Drinking and now not going to church.

You forgot smoking marijuana.