Love my 40's

[Darkhorse]

When I first got my M&Pc in 40 S&W I shot a couple of boxes of full power self defense loads. The pistol bucked and twisted in my hands and I didn't like it one bit. But I finally found a reduced load of Unique and 180 grain plated Rayonier HP's that shot much better and hit dead on the bull. A couple of thousand rounds later I still like it.
I like the 9mm for shooting paper. But when shooting at something that shoots back I want my .40 S&W. This is just my opinion but the bullet has greater diameter, is heavier, and about the same velocity. Physics don't lie. Now add a proven, tested bullet that penetrates deep with good expansion and I'm confident.
What brought this on?
The other day I was shooting my 40 caliber flintlock. I built this rifle at least 15 years ago to hunt turkeys with. It has a Rice barrel, a large Siler lock lefthand, davis set triggers...the best components I could buy at the time. It shoots better than the shooter most days and hits hard. I've killed several Gobblers with it and most took a dirt nap right there.
So I was shooting my turkey load 60 grains of 3fg, .018 pillow ticking patch, and .395 round ball. I have a 4" gong rated for any rifle or pistol and I've shot it with a number of calibers over the years and none made so much as a dent in it. I took the shot offhand at about 40 yards and the gong just dissappeared in the smoke, it had wrapped the chains over the frame.
But what got my attention was the POI. There was a definite crater easily felt with a fingertip. Around it is a ring of displaced steel. You can look at the target and see there are no old hits showing penetration of any kind.
Kinda hard for me to believe and I've been shooting these old guns nearly 40 years.
And it's 2:46 AM, I guess I'm a little bored.

 

[chuckdog]

I like the idea of one shot one kill.

I admit to never being a big 40 S&W fan, but I believe for those that can handle it well in a small package it will be more often than not superior to the 9mm for SD.

I believe with the souped up drugged up giant people we have today that the job of self defense requires reconsideration.

 

[Ruger#3]

The physics work but the application has not turned out. The harder to handle .40 load saw decreases in LEO qualification. Why, they don’t typically shoot frequently and the recoil impacts accuracy of multiple shots. Great gun if you practice with it sufficiently and can handle it. I don’t believe most put in the range time and are best served by what they can handle.

 

[rosewood]

But I finally found a reduced load of Unique and 180 grain plated Rayonier HP's that shot much better and hit dead on the bull. A couple of thousand rounds later I still like it.

You mind sharing that load? I used 155s for years, but for some reason, they are hard to find now. So I went to 165 and found good loads. After the planpanic, all I could find was 180s so I have a bunch of those and haven't found a pleasant accurate load yet.

Thanks,

Rosewood

 

[Nimrod71]

I have always been a big gun fan, both rifles and hand guns. As for hand guns I have been shooting 44 mag. for over 40 years with full house loads. I like seeing the fire come out of the barrel. Ruger is right about the recoil, if you learn to handle it the weapon will not be effective, you want hit the target. Hand guns take a lot more practice for proficiency than rifles. I to like the 40 S.W. and it is a good self defense gun once you learn to shoot it. The 9 mm to me is way under powered in a face to face shoot out. When I saw that 9 mm would not knock a bowling pin off a sheet of plywood I lowered them to a plinking round. I know wars have been fought and peole are killed everyday with them and they will kill you, but a 22 will kill you too. If in a shoot out I want to the shootee on the ground as fast as possible and I think I can do it faster with a 40 S.W. than a 9 mm. Again you have to use whatever is at hand be a 22 or 50 S.W. It boils down to whatever is best for you. If I go fishing I carry a 9 mm, it took the place of my 22, the reason the 9 mm holds 16 rounds to the 22's ten.

 

[Darkhorse]

I agree 100% Ruger. The 40 is indeed fierce in a small ccw package and it takes a lot of practice to handle it. The majority of people don't put in the time it takes.
But I was talking about me and I have put in the time. I have also shot it enough to decide the 180 grain loads have less of the twisting recoil that the lighter bullets do. That's one reason I shoot the 180's.

But what this post was really about was the damage that little roundball did to that steel plate.

 

[Darkhorse]

You mind sharing that load? I used 155s for years, but for some reason, they are hard to find now. So I went to 165 and found good loads. After the planpanic, all I could find was 180s so I have a bunch of those and haven't found a pleasant accurate load yet.

Thanks,

Rosewood

This is for plated bullets, there should be plenty of data for jacketed bullets in the manuals.
I can't remember how I decided on the powder charge weight it's been several years past now. But I've been shooting it for years now with no problems. I wanted a load that was fairly comfortable to shoot yet had enough recoil to offer realistic recoil levels to help me get used to the recoil of full power SD loads.
This morning I looked at some online data and most of it shows 5.5 grains of Unique as max. So my load may be a little hot.
5.7 grains of Unique. 180 grain Rayonier HP copper plated lead bullets. Range brass. WW small pistol primers. S&W M&P compact .40 caliber.
The newer Unique burns a lot cleaner than the older stuff. Unique is a versatile powder and I've loaded shotgun shells and various pistol cartridges with it over the years. Right now I'm loading the .40 and the Rem. 44 mag.
This load doesn't reach the recoil charateristics of full power SD loads but it's fairly close. I don't carry my handloads for SD. This is one case I use factory stuff.
Darkhorse

 

[Dub]

I routinely conceal carry handguns chambered in the following: 9mm, .38spcl, .38 Super, 10mm and .45acp.


I pray to never need them.....but I get in enough range time to be mildly confident in: proficiency on paper, error recovery, safety and field-level maintenance of weapon.


I know that I am responsible for the results of each round fired....and won't carry a gun that I can't control. By control, I mean putting multiple shots on target in fast succession.





When time permits I want to continue getting further professional training....anything I can do to tip the scales in my favor in the event the skills are ever needed. I've never had a paper bad guy target shoot back. Getting training from those who have is a pressing goal.

In the meantime, I've added at least one spare magazine to the carry gear. Not simply for the extra rounds....but in case a fouled up draw & presentation results in an in unintentional mag ejection.

 

[rosewood]

This is for plated bullets, there should be plenty of data for jacketed bullets in the manuals.
I can't remember how I decided on the powder charge weight it's been several years past now. But I've been shooting it for years now with no problems. I wanted a load that was fairly comfortable to shoot yet had enough recoil to offer realistic recoil levels to help me get used to the recoil of full power SD loads.
This morning I looked at some online data and most of it shows 5.5 grains of Unique as max. So my load may be a little hot.
5.7 grains of Unique. 180 grain Rayonier HP copper plated lead bullets. Range brass. WW small pistol primers. S&W M&P compact .40 caliber.
The newer Unique burns a lot cleaner than the older stuff. Unique is a versatile powder and I've loaded shotgun shells and various pistol cartridges with it over the years. Right now I'm loading the .40 and the Rem. 44 mag.
This load doesn't reach the recoil charateristics of full power SD loads but it's fairly close. I don't carry my handloads for SD. This is one case I use factory stuff.
Darkhorse

I have the plated Berrys Bullets. I did have some Ranier, but I think U used them up.
Thanks!

 

[leoparddog]

I love my .40S&W's too. I have several currently, one is a M&P Compact. It is a handful for sure.

 

[rosewood]

I love my .40S&W's too. I have several currently, one is a M&P Compact. It is a handful for sure.

You should try it in the shield.

 

[Darkhorse]

You should try it in the shield.

No thank you. It's bad enough in the compact, I'm not sure I could even hold onto a shield shooting full house 40 loads. The first time I shot my compact I was shooting full power SD loads and it was a hot day, I was mostly in the sunshine and my hands were sweating. As much 44 magnums I used to shoot made me supremely confident with that little ol 40. I found out quick it's not the same thing. That little pistol almost twisted out of my hand and I thought I'd lost it. The next few shots were'nt any better. I hated both the gun and caliber.
I had to learn how to hold the pistol better for recoil control and shoot it a couple of times a week for a year or more. Then regular but less frequent trips afterward. Now I'm fairly proficient but it's still a kicker.

 

[Mattval]

On Tom Gresham's Guntalk the other day, well I have heard him say this several diff times, that a 45 ACP 40, 10mm, 9mm and 380 all have the same, I'm paraphrasing here, "kill ratio". There is not one that kills any better than the other in a self defense situation. All pistol cartridges are underpowered. I will try to find out where the stats are that he speaks of.

 

[NCHillbilly]

I like the .40S&W myself. My Glock 23 is my EDC piece for years, and isn't any trouble at all to shoot.

 

[rosewood]

On Tom Gresham's Guntalk the other day, well I have heard him say this several diff times, that a 45 ACP 40, 10mm, 9mm and 380 all have the same, I'm paraphrasing here, "kill ratio". There is not one that kills any better than the other in a self defense situation. All pistol cartridges are underpowered. I will try to find out where the stats are that he speaks of.

The problem with any "stats" associated with a "kill ratio" is we have limited consistent data. All of the data is based on eyewitness testimony which many times is inadequate. Many times the round count fired in any incident is different dependent upon who you ask. When you factor in all the stress in a shooting, all bets are off on memory.

Have a retired LEO friend that was in one shooting and it was a revolver he had. One of the eyewitnesses said he fired over 20 rounds. In fact, he fired 5. Had the shell casings to prove it and I think the final report that the media published had it wrong also.

Rarely do the stats include where the person is hit, whether they are on drugs or not. So many variables and unknowns that make it down right impossible to make any credible conclusion. It is kind of like "climate change". There are just too many variables and liars in the mix to trust any study that proves anything.

Ultimately, it boils down to what we believe (or want to believe) is what we will go with.

Rosewood

 

[rosewood]

No thank you. It's bad enough in the compact, I'm not sure I could even hold onto a shield shooting full house 40 loads. The first time I shot my compact I was shooting full power SD loads and it was a hot day, I was mostly in the sunshine and my hands were sweating. As much 44 magnums I used to shoot made me supremely confident with that little ol 40. I found out quick it's not the same thing. That little pistol almost twisted out of my hand and I thought I'd lost it. The next few shots were'nt any better. I hated both the gun and caliber.
I had to learn how to hold the pistol better for recoil control and shoot it a couple of times a week for a year or more. Then regular but less frequent trips afterward. Now I'm fairly proficient but it's still a kicker.

I have been a big fan since they were popular. The 40S&W was the second cartridge I bought for myself (the first being a .357 mag) way back in the late 90's. I still own that gun. I do like the 10mm more, but the 40 just fits in a handier package.

I bought a Shield in 40 thinking I would like it. I shoot it fine, but it just kicks too much for a carry piece. I have swapped to a S&W 3913 (single stack 9mm for those that do not know). Unless something major changes, that will be my CC gun for life. It just carries well and I shoot dead accurate with it. For woods carry, I have a 40 Long (10mm). If I were to open carry, I would go with a larger gun than the 3913 and it would most likely be a 40 S&W. I shoot my large 40s great and recoil is no bother in a full size gun.

Rosewood

 

[NCHillbilly]

On Tom Gresham's Guntalk the other day, well I have heard him say this several diff times, that a 45 ACP 40, 10mm, 9mm and 380 all have the same, I'm paraphrasing here, "kill ratio". There is not one that kills any better than the other in a self defense situation. All pistol cartridges are underpowered. I will try to find out where the stats are that he speaks of.

A .380 is the same as a 10mm? Sure. If you want to believe that, go ahead. Think of the money you'll save deer hunting with your .22LR.

 

[trial&error]

I shot my old pistol target just plain 1/4" steel hanging from a chain with my muzzle loader and it nearly folded it in half. Also Shot it with 223 and had a copper ringed hole in it.

 

[Robert28]

I’ll let anyone shoot my old P229. It honestly feels like a 9mm even shooting 180 grain. It’s a bit heavy to carry but that’s what also makes it such an easy shooter.

 

[Dub]

The problem with any "stats" associated with a "kill ratio" is we have limited consistent data. All of the data is based on eyewitness testimony which many times is inadequate. Many times the round count fired in any incident is different dependent upon who you ask. When you factor in all the stress in a shooting, all bets are off on memory.

Have a retired LEO friend that was in one shooting and it was a revolver he had. One of the eyewitnesses said he fired over 20 rounds. In fact, he fired 5. Had the shell casings to prove it and I think the final report that the media published had it wrong also.

Rarely do the stats include where the person is hit, whether they are on drugs or not. So many variables and unknowns that make it down right impossible to make any credible conclusion. It is kind of like "climate change". There are just too many variables and liars in the mix to trust any study that proves anything.

Ultimately, it boils down to what we believe (or want to believe) is what we will go with.

Rosewood

The statistic that mattered in your friend’s situation is he survived.


Fully agree with each point you make.


I can’t imagine the difficulties in being in law enforcement in today’s society. I believe it would be wise to wear multiple body cameras and more ammo. Ammo to protect you during the shooting and the cameras to protect you from what comes afterwards.