Making changes in GA wildlife management

[gobblestopper]

With every issue of GON I get more and more frustrated at the whining and crying about what we are losing in this state with very few proposals in making changes to slow the damage. I suppose the new spin off organization is an effort to organize people, but it will take time to get off its feet if it ever does. Afterall, instead of kicking off the organization with funding from large corporate sponsors they have asked the ave joe to reach into his pocket and pay the way. We already have taxation with representation in this country, why should we pay more to have our voices heard?

Again, the DNR appears to be faced with possible cuts in staffing and managed areas. So what. The addition or deletion of 10 DNR law enforcement agents is not going to solve our problems. As seen in the pages of GON every month the DNR law enforcement division continues to be an ineffective deterent to game law violators. Time and time again we read of habitual offenders being arrested again only to face weak fines (that vary by county) and little or no jail time.

Here is a wake up call.

First, create a statewide systems of fines and punishments to fit the crimes. These fines can include minimum and maximum to gives judges the freedom to assess the punishment as they see fit, but within a parameter. A designated, statewide, portion of each fine needs to be allocated to DNR law enforcement. The DNR arrests the folks, they should see the funding to continue the program.

Second, Do you really think suspending a poachers lisc for a year will stop him from hunting? Come on, they broke other laws, what difference is having a lisc going to make? Make the penalty sting, make them go to a low security jail for a period of time that requires them to particpate in a work program that provides labor to WMA's and other DNR labor intensive projects.

Third, how many more times will I have to read in the hall of shame about hunters from Florida breaking the law? It is absolutely amazing how little respect some of them have as visitors to our state. So, do something about it. Raise not only the price of non resident lisc's (sure the law breakers wont buy them, but their law abiding fellow floridians can help foot the bill) and make fines for violations much, much stiffer for non residents with the permanent banning on their hunting rights in our state.

Fourth, The DNR needs to embrace the support of various groups in this state when they offer help our assistance. Support for the DNR doesn't only come in the form of uniforms, trucks or increase budget for additional people. Help comes in the form of donated time and effort by volunteers. Help comes in the form of donated seed and materials on our WMA's. Help comes in the form of concerned hunters and fisherman standing up for not only our rights, but the DNR's right to make a living helping preserve and protect wildlife for future generations. The DNR has turned down offers on projects that included free time and materials, but why don't we read about that?

Fifth, Where is a true grassroots group of people who demand action, not fireside chat and political correctness? Where is the group of sportsmen and women that demand our legislators meet with us and give time to discuss our issues? Not another grassroots group that talks amongst themselves about letter writing and emailing. Where is a group that is willing to get in their trucks and cars and drive to meet face to face with lawmakers in our state and ask them eye to eye to support our needs? It is easy for a member of our government to blow off a letter or email, but when you speak with them in person it makes an impression.

I sure hope that future generations will have the ability to hunt and fish freely as I do. However, I am really concerned that they wont. Too many folks are too soft on a serious issue. Amazing how many reading this are not affraid to pull the trigger and kill a deer, but they are affraid to question facts and hurt some feelings.

 

[Just 1 More]

Third, how many more times will I have to read in the hall of shame about hunters from Florida breaking the law? It is absolutely amazing how little respect some of them have as visitors to our state. So, do something about it. Raise not only the price of non resident lisc's (sure the law breakers wont buy them, but their law abiding fellow floridians can help foot the bill) and make fines for violations much, much stiffer for non residents with the permanent banning on their hunting rights in our state.

I take a lot of offense at your idea and accusation of Florida hunters being the law breakers as I hope other Florida hunters are as well... I agree some are. I hunted a very nice club in GA and I was the only 1 from Florida with the other 35 members being locals... They were/are the bigges bunch of law breakers I have ever known. These guys hunt over corn, kill way more bucks then the 2 allowed, even night hunt.
WHY WOULD YOU EVEN THINK of increasing the Non resident license fee?... What would that do other than make non residents go elsewhere? Is that your intention?
I do believe you are right on tract about increasing fines and penalties.

 

[Jeff Phillips]

Gooblestopper - Well said

I think we are moving, too slowly in my opinion, toward organizations that will be in CONSTANT contact with our elected officials. The GONetwork and Camo Coalition are both heading in the right direction. Hunters were without a doubt the best represented group at the meetings in Gwinnett County last week! Compared to just 2 years ago our voice is much louder than it was, and we will get much louder before we are done.

The GONetwork is very inexpensive for the representation we will receive.

The Camouflage Coalition is free! Register online at www.camocoalition.org.

A few thoughts of my own that I would add to your post:

Make the hunting ban for violators work the same as probation. If you violate the probation, you finish the time in jail!

Increase ALL license fees, resident and non-resident, by $25 in '06 and add $5 per year for the next 5 years, with the money earmarked to go straight to DNR, not into the general funds. I know this is not popular with a lot of folks, but we need to pay to play!

Make a WMA Stamp $50, with the additional money earmarked to improvements on the WMA's according to the number of hunters who use each location.

 

[gobblestopper]

I take a lot of offense at your idea and accusation of Florida hunters being the law breakers as I hope other Florida hunters are as well... I agree some are. I hunted a very nice club in GA and I was the only 1 from Florida with the other 35 members being locals... They were/are the bigges bunch of law breakers I have ever known. These guys hunt over corn, kill way more bucks then the 2 allowed, even night hunt.
WHY WOULD YOU EVEN THINK of increasing the Non resident license fee?... What would that do other than make non residents go elsewhere? Is that your intention?
I do believe you are right on tract about increasing fines and penalties.

I dont care if you take offense. In fact, I am offended that you knowingly hunt with "They were/are the bigges bunch of law breakers I have ever known. These guys hunt over corn, kill way more bucks then the 2 allowed, even night hunt" and do not report thier violations to the law. You are just as guilty for allowing them to break the law.

As for the higher fines on Law breakers from FL, well I pay taxes to enforce laws on the citizens of GA, I don't for the visitors from other states. As a visitor you should respect our state and the land you are hunting on more so because you are being afforded a priviledge and not a right to hunt as a guest in our state.

As for higher lisc fees, I hunted in AL, SC, AR, and TX last year all by paying non resident lisc fee's. I was not forced to hunt in these states, I have just as good hunting here at home. however, I choose to hunt those states and I decide to pay their non resi fees for what they are or I stay home. If visitors go elsewhere then so be it, but the majority will stay.

However, an increase in fines and lisc will serve no purpose unless it is specifically earmarked for wildlife management purposes. A drop in the general fund bucket will get us nowhere.

While on the subject here is another splendid idea for generating revenue for the DNR. Change the GA waterfowl stamp to a migratory bird stamp and force all dove hunters to purchase. Afterall, how much gas and manpower is expended while enforcing the laws while checking dove hunters?

 

[Just 1 More]

These guys hunt over corn, kill way more bucks then the 2 allowed, even night hunt" and do not report thier violations to the law. You are just as guilty for allowing them to break the law.

Kind of figured you would jump on that one,,,, THEY WERE REPORTED! and you are VERY wrong for making the assumption that they wern't. Once again, you offend me by telling me how guilty I am.. get the facts before you start accusing people.

I'm not going to get in a wizzzing match with you about non resident hunters,,, We bring a lot of money to your state and for that you should be thankful, but your attitude tells me otherwise.

I agree that fines and penelties need to be strengthened and enforced, regardless of where you're from and where you hunt.

 

[CAL]

Sorry,I can't agree with the comment about Florida hunters!I am friends with many Florida hunters and they are all very nice people to be associated with and abide by Ga.laws to the limit.Their camps are very well groomed and taken good care of.May I say,I wish more of my local friends were as law abiding as my friends from Florida.

 

[gobblestopper]

Which part do you not agree with, the "some" of the floridians or the raised non resident lisc fees?

Pull out the last three or four copies of GON and list how many violations there are from out of staters. Also, narrow that down to how many of them happen to be by chance from FL. Of course my changes in raising fees and fines would not only apply to those from FL, they would apply to SC, AL, NC, ND, IN and any other out of state folks.

 

[Just 1 More]

AGAIN,,, I understand and agree that fines and punishment needs to be strenghthened and ENFORCED... but what will raising the non resident fees do for discouraging law breakers?
Georgia is not the only place I hunt,, I have 2 family camps in Pennsylvania, 1 camp in Maine, I have also hunted Idaho, Texas, Alabama, and have plans to hunt a few more states... I abide by all game laws and always try to leave a place better than when I arrived.
As far as doing something about game law violators,,, you need to start looking in your own back yard before you start generalizing and disrespecting non residents and placing the blame on them.

 

[gobblestopper]

AGAIN,,, I understand and agree that fines and punishment needs to be strenghthened and ENFORCED... but what will raising the non resident fees do for discouraging law breakers?
Georgia is not the only place I hunt,, I have 2 family camps in Pennsylvania, 1 camp in Maine, I have also hunted Idaho, Texas, Alabama, and have plans to hunt a few more states... I abide by all game laws and always try to leave a place better than when I arrived.
As far as doing something about game law violators,,, you need to start looking in your own back yard before you start generalizing and disrespecting non residents and placing the blame on them.

"but what will raising the non resident fees do for discouraging law breakers?"
By raising fees and fines with their monies properly allocated to a law enforcement fund, more feet on the beat will arrest and prosecute more lawbreakers. Showing that we have teeth and not just bark in our efforts to curd illegal game activities will spread by word of mouth.

"I have also hunted Idaho, Texas, Alabama, and have plans to hunt a few more states... I abide by all game laws and always try to leave a place better than when I arrived"
Most non residents follow the same train of thought, however many do not. Why should a guest hunting in this state not be held to a higher standard?

"you need to start looking in your own back yard before you start generalizing and disrespecting non residents and placing the blame on them"
I have not placed blame, I have merely pointed out a suggested course of action that can and will improve issues. Would you rather I whine and complain about issues or provide solid, well thought, ideas and solutions to problems. I am all for slaming the gavel on the folks in my back yard as well as the folks who they have over to visit. There is plenty of wrongdoing to go around. By putting a curb to the nonresident law breaker, we will have more time to police "our own" as you put it.

 

[Just 1 More]

By putting a curb to the nonresident law breaker, we will have more time to police "our own"

]

Dosn't make sense,,, Law enforcement does not establish "policing" of select hunters as non resident vs resident. I believe that law enforcement is out enforcing the laws regardless of the law breakers state of origin.

Just took a quick look at the GON Hall of Shame case files as you suggested,,
The October issue shows 6 cases... all of which are residents with no mention of "Florida" hunters anywhere..
The September issue reported 11 cases with 3 cases involving non residents
The August issue reported 10 cases with only 1 case involving non resident hunters.
The July issue reported 4 cases... all residents
Seems you need to do a little more homework on your statistics.

Why should a guest hunting in this state not be held to a higher standard?

They should not be held to any "higher standard" than that which you set for yourself.

 

[leoparddog]

I hate to jump in the middle but..

Just 1 More, if you reported the lawbreakers in that camp, you should have said so in your initial post. I'm glad you reported them, but by leaving that fact out well..."Kind of figured you would jump on that one".

Its like you wanted him to jump on that one, so you could start an argument. Gobblestopper wasn't picking on you personally, please don't take it as such.

I know he picked on FL, and a lot (if not most) of our out of staters are from FL for good reasons. Most of them are great guys I'm sure and law obeying too.

BUT...I think we all agree that the fines and penalties for breaking the GA game laws are way too low.

Game theory suggests our current situation with Non-Residents hunting without a license is not a Win/Win for the State of GA, but is a zero sum game for the law breaker.

That is: If the fine/penalty for hunting without a license is the cost of buying a license, what does an out of state hunter have to lose? Nothing.
Those (few) who would break the law - will break the law. If the fine for an Non-Resident hunting without a license was $1000, then that potential law-breaker has a lot to lose.

The same logic applies to GA so-called hunters who break the law. The fines are small and punishments minimal. There is nothing to really lose if you get caught breaking the law, just a slap on the wrist.

When I used to work for the FL DNR back in the 80's, if you were caught seriously violating game laws, FL would take your truck, boat, guns, license, slap you in jail and fine you heavily. I don't know if its that way now, but that is the way it should be in GA.

I don't really agree with substantially jacking up the fees for the Non-Resident hunters, but do agree with raising license fees to some degree if that money is directed back into the DNR budget.

 

[gobblestopper]

"Dosn't make sense,,, Law enforcement does not establish "policing" of select hunters as non resident vs resident. I believe that law enforcement is out enforcing the laws regardless of the law breakers state of origin."

If the fine for hunting over bait is 2500.00 to a non resident there will 1, be more revenue generated for more law enforcement and two non resi's are less willing to take the risk over what today might be a 150.00 slap on the back...

Sure law enforcement will not focus on the non resi's but the sting will surely be more painful for our guests.

Do my homework? Hmm, looks like I have done a good bit. Of the 4 non resi cases, a. how many of those are from FL? b. how many of those cases include more than one person per case? Now take each of the people from out of state listed and multiply them by 2500.00 and tell me how much revenue would be generated for the future use by Law enforcement. Next, add the people up and see how much their actual fines were. While you are at it, lets add 50 bucks to the non resident lisc and see how much more revenue would have been generated just from the people from out of state who were listed as breaking the law.

Once the simple math is complete, take the chip off of your shoulder and present some facts about how to fix our dangerous situation. Other than try and defend non resi's, you have not presented a solution to any issues on managing wildlife in the state of GA.

 

[Just 1 More]

OK... I'll repeat my self AGAIN... Fines and punishment should be strengthend and enforced to the fullest extent.. I'm all for the raising of fines and the increased punishment for law breakers,,, ALL FOR IT!!!! regardless of where they are from... I do feel that fines and punishment should be the same across the board,, not selective with a lesser fine because you live within the state that you're breaking laws in..
I did not take any of this personal.. and i'm not defending Florida hunters. I am mearly saying that the laws should be held equal for any and all who break them. PLease, by all means, fine that Florida hunter for hunting over bait ,,, but fine that local just the same... a law breaker is a law breaker... thats all i'm saying

Do non resident speeders get a higher speeding ticket than the residents do?
Does the non resident murderer get a stiffer sentence than a resident does?
Does the non resident theif get more jail time than the resident?

 

[Donkeytoe]

I - as leaoparddog would like to interject my opinion. I want no part of the heated discussion so just read and ignore this post if you do not agree. As a hunter from Florida I am quick to say that I follow the law. I feel the idea of putting the burden on non-resident hunters is a flawed idea and will explain why I think so...

I believe (my opinion here) the reason you see Florida people as a root cause of the problem is because Florida hunters typically hunt in organized clubs. They do not have the luxury of knowing "Mr Smith" for their entire life who will let them hunt for free on his 100 acres. As a result, the game wardens know of these established clubs and visit them frequently. Mr Johnny Georgian hunts on private land or on his own land. If he is breaking the rules (and he does) chances are nobody is checking in on him. I believe the rule breakers are equally bad from both places.

Increasing non-resident costs will do nothing but drive these people out of your state. Is this what you want? I would think not. The revenue these people bring to your small rural communities is very important to the livelyhood of many Georgians. I know I personally spend thousands of dollars a year buying seed, renting tractors, shopping at your grocery stores, eating at your restaraunts, etc. (you get the idea). Do you believe that raising the cost of my license by a few 100 dollars and deterring me from hunting there is better than me spending this money in your state. I could just as easily take my money to Alabama or South Carolina but choose not to.

as for holding people to a higher standard. That is not the way our country works. Remember - All Equal? How would the many tourists or fisherman feel if Florida charged them $100's of dollars to fish off our coasts or visit our theme parks. I would venture to say that as many people from Georgia come to Florida to fish as Floridians who go to Georgia to hunt. Should they be held to a higher standard? To me that makes no sense.

Ultimately people will be breaking the law. I agree the penalties should be harsher but lets not discriminate. You break the law - you suffer the consequences - equally regardless where you are from.

 

[gobblestopper]

hmmm, I present at least 5 interesting points on how to better manage our state, yet the majority of complaints about what I have said come from one point, non resi hunters...

I am not picking on FL hunters, they just seem to stand out in the ranks of those commiting violations in GON lately. I'll point out those from SC and AL just as easily. Florida is not the root cause nor the sole answer to the problem.

"Increasing non-resident costs will do nothing but drive these people out of your state."
You think so? I doubt it in fact you state "I know I personally spend thousands of dollars a year buying seed, renting tractors, shopping at your grocery stores, eating at your restaraunts, etc. (you get the idea)." So, like most of the others from out of state, I doubt increasing your lisc fee by 75 bucks a year (less than 25 cents a day) it will drive many people away.

"as for holding people to a higher standard. That is not the way our country works. Remember - All Equal? How would the many tourists or fisherman feel if Florida charged them $100's of dollars to fish off our coasts or visit our theme parks. I would venture to say that as many people from Georgia come to Florida to fish as Floridians who go to Georgia to hunt. Should they be held to a higher standard?"
What? Just like GA, FL charges non resi's a higher fee for the priviledge to hunt and fish. Heck, just look at the increase in costs for a non resi lisc to hunt the Osceola turkey last year....

[B]Why do you care if a fellow Floridian pays 2500.00 bucks for a violation of the law and a Georgian pays 200.00 for the same violation? If you are not breaking the law it only serves to benefit YOU! I cannot believe some of you are choosing state loyalty over holding criminals accountable. WHY DO YOU TRY AND SHEILD CRIMINALS? WHAT DOES IT MATTER IF WE ARE FAIR AND EQUAL IN PUNISHMENT TO THOSE WHO BREAK THE LAW? [/B]

 

[gobblestopper]

More food for thought

An immediate increase of 50.00 per non resident would provide $250,000 of revenue if only 5000 non resi hunters purchased lisc. That amount of money should provide for the fully loaded cost for 2 DNR law enforcement officers including vehicle.

An immediate change in the law that created a minimum charge of 1500.00 per violation in the case of baiting would result in $150,000.00 if only 100 cases are successful. Split that in half with the county who convicts and $75K goes to state DNR. How many acres of food plots can be planted on public land with $75K

An immediate change in the policy of suspending lisc and making people work on public hunting lands including a minimum of 80 hours per incident would yeild 8000 hours of labor on DNR managed lands if only 100 violations are prosecuted and successful.


The money is there folks, we just need tough people in tough times who are willing to press for change and TRULY support wildlife management in this state.

 

[Just 1 More]

Sorry Gobblestopper,,, but I don't see your logic... I do not see why a resident would or should get a lesser fine for breaking any law.
I know that here in Florida I support the enforcement of game laws regardlless of state of origin. We should hold everyone to the same standards

 

[gobblestopper]

Just 1 more, I don't expect you to see my logic, you are from florida and it directly effects you. Likewise, I don't see your logic in caring one little bit about how much more a law breaker is fined regardless of where he is from. As a law abiding citizen I would think you would support an increase of fines that would help our cause in any shape or fashion we can get them.

Again, this non resi deal is only one of several ideas I have listed on improving the management of wildlife in the state of GA. Feel free to get off the feeling picked on point and tell us your suggestions...

 

[Just 1 More]

and for the record... I agree with all of your points except the increase of non resident license fees, I already pay over $200.00 a year as well as the extra $59.00 for my daughter to hunt with me. I don't even carry a gun unless it's to shoot a hog. And with the thousands I spend on gas, merchandise and such,,, I pay more than my fair share. We put back through habitat improvements and support the local economy by hiring locals to do tractor work. (one of wich i need to file a suit against)
I agree with your ideas of higher fines with the monies collected going back into law enforcement and habitat resources, those are great ideas... We as a group need to find a way to get the legal system to enforce the laws on the books as well as stiffen the fines for anyone who breaks the law.

 

[Donkeytoe]

" Why do you care if a fellow Floridian pays 2500.00 bucks for a violation of the law and a Georgian pays 200.00 for the same violation? If you are not breaking the law it only serves to benefit YOU! I cannot believe some of you are choosing state loyalty over holding criminals accountable. WHY DO YOU TRY AND SHEILD CRIMINALS? WHAT DOES IT MATTER IF WE ARE FAIR AND EQUAL IN PUNISHMENT TO THOSE WHO BREAK THE LAW? "


I believe it is you who is choosing state loyalty over holding others accountable. I believe ALL criminals regardless of state should be prosecuted equally. The previous post says it well.

Same speeding ticket regardless of state of licensure
same penalty for murder regardless of state of residence, etc.

ALL THE SAME STANDARD OF ACCOUNTABILITY