More food for thought concerning soil health and food plot strategies

[doomtrpr_z71]

My link is how ammonia is formed which is a component of ammonium nitrate, you cant get AN from haber bosch, it requires a seperate acid reaction, urea is formed from ammonia and is the more common form of fertilizer. Ammonium nitrate is a pain to find nowadays. I don't know where your education is from but the only nitrogen source that damages soil microbes is anhydrous ammonia due to its gaseous form. Nothing else damages them, putting wood chips in the soil can be more be considerably more harmful than applying 10-10-10. Those microbes I applied were still alive due to the fact that they were refrigerated until they were applied. There's just some claims that chemistry and biology don't back up.

 

[BabyIcanGuesstheRest]

My link is how ammonia is formed which is a component of ammonium nitrate, you cant get AN from haber bosch, it requires a seperate acid reaction, urea is formed from ammonia and is the more common form of fertilizer. Ammonium nitrate is a pain to find nowadays. I don't know where your education is from but the only nitrogen source that damages soil microbes is anhydrous ammonia due to its gaseous form. Nothing else damages them, putting wood chips in the soil can be more be considerably more harmful than applying 10-10-10. Those microbes I applied were still alive due to the fact that they were refrigerated until they were applied. There's just some claims that chemistry and biology don't back up.

It wont back it up for you because you aint listening. Youre so entrenched in the chemical camp you have your fingers in your ears. Trust me, I know, I used to fill the spreader up and sling it all over, pelletized commercial ferts is easy, it takes less work. It took me a few years before I saw the weed competition in syn fert application, the soil was devoid of any eye sight soil life. If the worms aint in it, it aint alive little buddy. A repeatedly chemically fertilized production piece of ground is a NPK laden soil, you get no trace elements or biologicals working on the symbiotic relationship of micro flora and fauna and a plant's roots. Its the essence of the topic the OP posted about. All you guys calling out my education and saying Im calling people out have missed the ENTIRE POINT of the thread.

I mean my God do I need to email admin? 3 of you now want to sideways half insult me then Grump say admin is gonna kick me out and Im condescending, LOL! Im discussing the TOPIC and yall are throwing around veiled insults.

Wood chips are great man! There is a guy here called 35 whelen, he turns in his chips every year in his garden. You seen his gardens? Look at the forest, 100s of trees per acre on nothing but deciduous tree and leaf fall mixed with some pine litter. Think about that nutrient uptake profile and demand and then think about a cornstalk. I have ten years into some plots tilling in wood chips every other year to restore carbon into the soil. I will lighting disk them in, leave it fallow a year then top dress in manure and compost then layer chips n the top and the plots go nuts.

Of course that isnt feasble to haul into the woods for plots for most folks but some folks would be capable. If there is access then bringing in natural inputs will lead to a sustainable food plot section, and will be alot cheaper. They could till and spread chicken litter, seed drag, sow, and have a killer plot. Very little money.

As far as anhydrous nitrate gas off killing microbial life I guess Im going to have to call out your contradiction on your stance. In essence you have done a 180 on your position. As far as your claim being substantiated that only anhydrous nit gas off kills microbial life you are wrong. There can be up to 40% loss of urea nitrogen due to gas off in the hay field, that gas in the soil and grass thatch reduces microbial colonization, if tight tolerances are kept on application you might get it down to 20%. I use pelleted chicken manure so Im not worried.
`
Come to think of it, Ive read here a year or so before I joined and I saw alot of you telling folks whats up but no pics of all that growing knowledge. Id love to see some.


Growing in a biodiverse soil aint for the faint of heart.

 

[glynr329]

Forest don't get caught up with some of the people on here it is not worth it. There are people who have appreciated your knowledge and help. You have always been positive and willing to help anyone. Keep up the good feed back from people willing listen.

Most people in this country get their food from a grocery store: they (we) DO "eat that"/wear that/support that... Lot of folks on here make a living from "that", in one form or another. I doubt they need your condescension, & they certainly don't deserve it.

Based on what you have posted so far in George's thread, I give you at best a month before the Admins ban you. More is the pity; you might have learned something.

And farming is farming, whether you are growing a garden, a food plot, or a 1000 acre field. The principles are the same, only the scale differs.

But rest assured: You will get no further teaching from me.

 

[Swampfox1775]

All fertilizer is chemical there chief. Water is a chemical substance. Just because it doesn't fall out of an animal doesn't mean that it is bad for the soil/environment. Education is awesome.

If it's made in a fertilizer plant I can guarantee it's bad for the soil/environment. Education IS awesome.

 

[Swampfox1775]

Goes hand-in-hand with this lesson:

"Reports says cover crops can reduce damage from floods, droughts"
http://www.dailystarjournal.com/agr...cle_c6a414fc-d2fc-5f9c-bde7-32429f2f6983.html

"... widespread adoption of these practices in a state like Iowa could reduce storm runoff by 15 percent and make as much as 11 percent more water available to crops on average through the end of the century, even as weather patterns become more severe."

 

[Swampfox1775]

AND, once again, the topic is SOIL HEALTH, you dont get that with synthetic ferts, you get a top soil devoid of microbiology and a layer of readily available NPK, the bulk soil below absorbs the run off and then leaches it into the water table.

 

[doomtrpr_z71]

It wont back it up for you because you aint listening. Youre so entrenched in the chemical camp you have your fingers in your ears. Trust me, I know, I used to fill the spreader up and sling it all over, pelletized commercial ferts is easy, it takes less work. It took me a few years before I saw the weed competition in syn fert application, the soil was devoid of any eye sight soil life. If the worms aint in it, it aint alive little buddy. A repeatedly chemically fertilized production piece of ground is a NPK laden soil, you get no trace elements or biologicals working on the symbiotic relationship of micro flora and fauna and a plant's roots. Its the essence of the topic the OP posted about. All you guys calling out my education and saying Im calling people out have missed the ENTIRE POINT of the thread.

I mean my God do I need to email admin? 3 of you now want to sideways half insult me then Grump say admin is gonna kick me out and Im condescending, LOL! Im discussing the TOPIC and yall are throwing around veiled insults.

Wood chips are great man! There is a guy here called 35 whelen, he turns in his chips every year in his garden. You seen his gardens? Look at the forest, 100s of trees per acre on nothing but deciduous tree and leaf fall mixed with some pine litter. Think about that nutrient uptake profile and demand and then think about a cornstalk. I have ten years into some plots tilling in wood chips every other year to restore carbon into the soil. I will lighting disk them in, leave it fallow a year then top dress in manure and compost then layer chips n the top and the plots go nuts.

Of course that isnt feasble to haul into the woods for plots for most folks but some folks would be capable. If there is access then bringing in natural inputs will lead to a sustainable food plot section, and will be alot cheaper. They could till and spread chicken litter, seed drag, sow, and have a killer plot. Very little money.

As far as anhydrous nitrate gas off killing microbial life I guess Im going to have to call out your contradiction on your stance. In essence you have done a 180 on your position. As far as your claim being substantiated that only anhydrous nit gas off kills microbial life you are wrong. There can be up to 40% loss of urea nitrogen due to gas off in the hay field, that gas in the soil and grass thatch reduces microbial colonization, if tight tolerances are kept on application you might get it down to 20%. I use pelleted chicken manure so Im not worried.
`
Come to think of it, Ive read here a year or so before I joined and I saw alot of you telling folks whats up but no pics of all that growing knowledge. Id love to see some.


Growing in a biodiverse soil aint for the faint of heart.

Oh dear lord, the internet is the only place where a PhD knows less than people who believe the holy truth that is all natural. The only reason anhydrous kills microbes has nothing to do with it being nitrogen, its a gas therefore it displaces oxygen in the soil. Adding a bunch of woodchips willy nilly knocks of the c:n ratio. If you doubt my growing knowledge that's fine, but my publication list doesn't support that. No one is killing their soil with fertilizer regardless of what you think. The whole point of the article is the root network, their point is to reduce tillage and leave some rootmass in the field to keep the network strong. Nothing in it demonized fertilizer. Funny considering I've worked both sides of the fence, I was an agronomist for the largest organic pecan operation east of the Mississippi. The key point for people who want to improve soil health is to pull a soil sample, see what you, amend it, and if you want to improve it further, reduce tillage.

 

[Crakajak]

The key point for people who want to improve soil health is to pull a soil sample, see what you, amend it, and if you want to improve it further, reduce tillage.

I have done my food plots this way for 10 years.Last time I planted was with a no till and really didn't want to do that.I pull soil test every year.Every year it comes up the same 300 lbs 19-19-19 1 ton/acre lime to get a 6.8 to 7.0 ph.If I skip a year on the lime it drops to 6.2-6.4.I have lots of bugs and worms in the soil so it must be healthy.

 

[BabyIcanGuesstheRest]

Oh dear lord, the internet is the only place where a PhD knows less than people who believe the holy truth that is all natural. The only reason anhydrous kills microbes has nothing to do with it being nitrogen, its a gas therefore it displaces oxygen in the soil. Adding a bunch of woodchips willy nilly knocks of the c:n ratio. If you doubt my growing knowledge that's fine, but my publication list doesn't support that. No one is killing their soil with fertilizer regardless of what you think. The whole point of the article is the root network, their point is to reduce tillage and leave some rootmass in the field to keep the network strong. Nothing in it demonized fertilizer. Funny considering I've worked both sides of the fence, I was an agronomist for the largest organic pecan operation east of the Mississippi. The key point for people who want to improve soil health is to pull a soil sample, see what you, amend it, and if you want to improve it further, reduce tillage.

So youre a consultant and a writer? I get it now.

So anyways, here some of that " willy - nilly woodchip " " all that is holy natural way " LOL

cropped out, skipping the shoulder season for some vacay.

Better get to writing your next publication.

 

[Crakajak]

So youre a consultant and a writer? I get it now.

So anyways, here some of that " willy - nilly woodchip " " all that is holy natural way " LOL

cropped out, skipping the shoulder season for some vacay.

Better get to writing your next publication.

O.K. serious questions. You grew all that with only wood chips and water?
How did you raise your p.h.level?
How much did you use?
How did you incorporate it into the ground?
How long ago did you put down the wood chips?
Any particular type of wood chip?pine/sweetgum/oak/heinz57?

 

[BabyIcanGuesstheRest]

O.K. serious questions. You grew all that with only wood chips and water?
How did you raise your p.h.level?
How much did you use?
How did you incorporate it into the ground?
How long ago did you put down the wood chips?
Any particular type of wood chip?pine/sweetgum/oak/heinz57?

Stockpile your chips, let em sit, they start the composting process for you. Once you disk them in give it a year before planting, put manure over it then, it takes time.

Rotate to another spot and grow in the mean time. Once you build a tilth in the soil, chips can be added every other year or two years as you see the dirt becoming more compacted.

My pH ranges from 6.4 -7.0. Im planting in a permaculture based system and I have no wild pH swings as its a steady diet, not a wild swing in nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium content inputs . A natural way to bring pH up if you desire to is wood ash but not unless you have constant pH readings below 6.5. 6.5 is optimal. Do not use wood ash if a soil test returns high potassium contents either. I havent encountered the need to raise pH but if you do and use wood ash dont exceed 25 lbs per 1000 sq ft, you'll be on the plus side of 7. Of course all this is based of initial soil tests.

I posted about my make up composted manures, composted hay, composted leaves, composted grass, rock phosphates, or azomite. Chicken litter needs to be well composted and pelletized, the only way Ill use it. If not you risk burning plants up and introducing pathogens into the soil.

I put how ever little or how much hay, grass, or leaves I see fit, more wont hurt. All tghis has to be well composted as you will introduce weed seeds into the seed bed. Of course wind blown weed seed can drift in but you dont wont to add it purposefully.

As far as Azomite and rock phosphates you use them solely as root building minerals and to aid in flower set. I use it at 4-5 lbs per 1000 sq ft, it calls for 7 lbs but I side dress with it again at flower set. For poultry manure I use 100lbs per 1000 sq ft, I do that initially on freshly added chips but have been cutting recommended dose in half as regular maintenance , but I side dress also as plants mature.

Always try for hardwood, pine is okay, cedar actually helps keep the flea beetles off brassicas a little linger than normal. The only wood you dont want it Locust, it's toxin taxafolin (sp?) is hazardous to all mammals. You dont want that leaching from decaying wood into the root zone.

I use the wood chips about every other year and at the seasons end to allow for a decomposition. Any wood that may still have the potential to rob nitrogen is offset by manure spreading.

Green wood in the soil will rob the nitrogen from it as it decomposes.

What wood and manure does for the soil is increase water holding capabilities while bringing aeration to clayey soils and in turn grows the fungi root web that colonizes the rhizome. This is true soil health.

I lightly disk or turn in the wood and spread manure on it when adding the new wood chips, this always takes place late fall into winter. The only time I use new wood chips during the season is as a mulch to conserve water, you do not want green wood in the root zone. Its a process that takes time, it has to work. I have found once in place and maintained inputs drop off 50% and tillage is cut way down, you keep a loamy, fertile soil, not a clay packed mud glob that sucks up water and is damp and cold. This allows for much sooner planting by soil temp as a loose, aerated soil warms faster in spring. The wood will build a dark rich earth that fosters the microbial activity to form the relationship with the plants roots that allow healthy production.

I never came in here saying that anyone had to do it my way, but I have done it the other way, spent a lot more money, got a lot less results, for a lot more time and inputs.

Look at the woods, maintained without tillage, they feed themselves, are more biologically diverse than any organism on earth, and rarely see large scale disease.

The way I grow Im trying to replicate it. The wood is the building block and takes time. Manure application speeds the process, once you build the tilth and have the wood decayed the microbiology takes over and you simply feed it.

Feed the soil, feeds the plants.

 

[BabyIcanGuesstheRest]

Sorry for any typos in there also, taking a summer cold on vacation with me, gotta go when I can.

I probably misspelled or murdered some English, I'm on Nyquil, Dayquil, Benadryl, moonshine, honey, lemon, Halls.

Anyways, I didnt mean to step on anyone's toes. If I did I apologize.

 

[OmenHonkey]

Is your name Dan?

 

[GeorgeShu]

BabyIcanguess...
Nice looking crops, well done!

I am still bothered by a comment you made in an earlier post. "The soil is DEAD on land that has been regularly fertilized with synthetically processed chemical fertilizers."

It just does not ring true to me. My eyes tell me differently and my experiences reinforce what my eyes see.

Do you know about the Morrow Plots at the Univ. of Illinois? If not, go to this site and check them out:
http://agronomyday.cropsci.illinois.edu/2001/morrow-plots/

In short, these plots have been continuously farmed since 1876 basically using recommended farming practices. Corn was grown continuously for many years in one plot and rotations were used in adjoining plots. Productivity of the plots declined over time and fertilization was begun in 1904 has has been used ever since.

The results have been predictable in higher yields and healthy soils.

The application of fertilizers have not damaged these soils and productivity has not suffered from the use of fertilizers.

So my question is: How can you reconcile your comment in light of the results from the Morrow plots? And I guess I should add, all the millions of acres of crop land that regularly are amended with ag lime and fertilizer, both natural and synthetically produced that continue to produce higher yield of high quality food and fiber products?

 

[BabyIcanGuesstheRest]

BabyIcanguess...
Nice looking crops, well done!

I am still bothered by a comment you made in an earlier post. "The soil is DEAD on land that has been regularly fertilized with synthetically processed chemical fertilizers."

It just does not ring true to me. My eyes tell me differently and my experiences reinforce what my eyes see.

Do you know about the Morrow Plots at the Univ. of Illinois? If not, go to this site and check them out:
http://agronomyday.cropsci.illinois.edu/2001/morrow-plots/

In short, these plots have been continuously farmed since 1876 basically using recommended farming practices. Corn was grown continuously for many years in one plot and rotations were used in adjoining plots. Productivity of the plots declined over time and fertilization was begun in 1904 has has been used ever since.

The results have been predictable in higher yields and healthy soils.

The application of fertilizers have not damaged these soils and productivity has not suffered from the use of fertilizers.

So my question is: How can you reconcile your comment in light of the results from the Morrow plots? And I guess I should add, all the millions of acres of crop land that regularly are amended with ag lime and fertilizer, both natural and synthetically produced that continue to produce higher yield of high quality food and fiber products?

Its is alot more " dead " than a biologically diverse topsoil.

Applying synthetic fertilizers every time you grow will get yields of course, but it does nothing to build a quality biologic soil.

Throwing bagged NPK every year on piece of clay ground is no more different than an substrate used in hydroponic farming, which Ive had a fair amount of experience with also. A inert media like perlite or coco coir can be used, you can add bioponic natural or hydroponic synthetic ferts to it and grow hydroponically, what you wont have in a synthetic grow is a media that has been colonized by beneficial bacteria and fungi like a natural or "organic " ( I hate this word- made up by bureaucrats ) grow media will show. Years of tillage and synthetic ferts has made the soil a substrate for holding the roots.The plants feed off the NPK, not the way its supposed to be, in nature the soil is feeding the plant by breaking down natural sources of nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium.


Im going outta town, you guys have a good one.

 

[dixiecutter]

I fully understood all of this ^

 

[doomtrpr_z71]

Oh my, I think I'm done publishing this year, 3 journal articles, 2 RER chapters, and 20 non refereed publications in 6 months is more than adequate. I've never seen that black plastic occur naturally either. Which seems clear of nutsedge which would point to it being fumigated which would kill the microbes. If the soil was as dead as you think it is from fertilizers, we wouldn't need reduced tillage since the residue wouldn't break down very quickly. Even fumigants that sterilize the soil only kill the microbial populations for a short time, they recover in three weeks. The funny thing about that manure you apply, the nitrogen in it is ammonium, so how can it kill microbes, they don't know the difference between manure or fertilizer? It doesn't, either form is nitrified. Read what you want, see what you want, it doesn't change the truth of chemistry or biology. You wanted pictures here you go: the second is an irrigation study with 4 bale cotton and the third is of the awesome boll distribution. The first is of cotton grown with and without high biomass rye cover crops with an average yield of 2400lbs per acre. The rye requires 40 more pounds of nitrogen per acre to feed those soil microbes due to the C:N ratio to achieve the same yields. I generally dont take pictures of work, only fish, since pixels dont matter only what makes it into the picker basket matters. You know come to think of it you really remind me of a previous user, Longhunter if I'm not mistaken. Crakajak, I'd say your soil is nice and healthy.

 

[wood888]

 

[BabyIcanGuesstheRest]

Oh my, I think I'm done publishing this year, 3 journal articles, 2 RER chapters, and 20 non refereed publications in 6 months is more than adequate. I've never seen that black plastic occur naturally either. Which seems clear of nutsedge which would point to it being fumigated which would kill the microbes. If the soil was as dead as you think it is from fertilizers, we wouldn't need reduced tillage since the residue wouldn't break down very quickly. Even fumigants that sterilize the soil only kill the microbial populations for a short time, they recover in three weeks. The funny thing about that manure you apply, the nitrogen in it is ammonium, so how can it kill microbes, they don't know the difference between manure or fertilizer? It doesn't, either form is nitrified. Read what you want, see what you want, it doesn't change the truth of chemistry or biology. You wanted pictures here you go: the second is an irrigation study with 4 bale cotton and the third is of the awesome boll distribution. The first is of cotton grown with and without high biomass rye cover crops with an average yield of 2400lbs per acre. The rye requires 40 more pounds of nitrogen per acre to feed those soil microbes due to the C:N ratio to achieve the same yields. I generally dont take pictures of work, only fish, since pixels dont matter only what makes it into the picker basket matters. You know come to think of it you really remind me of a previous user, Longhunter if I'm not mistaken. Crakajak, I'd say your soil is nice and healthy.

Because its composted ya genius, fully broken down and readily available when it hits the dirt from organic decay, and try a flame weeder there sport, you aint as sharp as you think you are.

I surely aint spending my vacation arguing with a talking head. You write, others do.

 

[misterpink]

And he's gone.

We hardly knew ye - and thats probably better.

It is times like these that I'm reminded of the story of The Three Billy Goats Gruff.

Vaya con dios, idiota.