hrstille
Senior Member
Totally pointless to have a minimum spread rule of 15". There have been booners killed that were less than 15" wide. So hunters are supposed to pass a 200" buck if he's less than 15" wide? Only fools make those laws.
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Mossy Oak Game Keepers "The Culling Effect"
- Thread starter across the river
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ddd-shooter
Senior Member
Yeah that’s essentially the point they made! It was very eye opening. But it makes sense, there’s something genetic that kicks in when the Doe carrying the fawn is in good health that triggers the offspring to be bigger and healthier also.
ddd-shooter
Senior Member
From the study:
“First and foremost, you are what you eat—but you’re also what your mother and her mother
ate! Our results clearly show that deer in the LCP region of Mississippi are not genetically doomed to have smaller bodies and antlers; they are simply a product of their environment. Once nutrition was improved, LCP bucks started to display their ge- netic potential—but it took time. We feel confident that what we found was an epigenetic effect.
This new epigenetic phenomenon explains how one’s DNA can remain the same while its expres- sion is altered by environmental conditions. One way to think about it is a series of switches within an animal’s genes. If generations of a family have lived in a low-quality habitat, then it’s advanta- geous to “turn off the switch” for the genes that promote a large body and antlers—the advantage is that smaller animals are better suited to the qual- ity of forage in their environment. This “off switch” keeps animals from growing larger in a particularly good year, only to be hurt when forage quality returns to normal. Therefore, this new epigenetics model shows that, in addition to the environment a buck experiences during his lifetime, the habitat quality experienced by his parents and grandpar- ents also is critically important!
This is a remarkable discovery and explains the variation we see in body and antler size far better than the basic genetic model. It is nature’s way of allowing deer (and other animals) to adapt to their environment.
Although the first generation of bucks was raised on the same optimal diet, certain genes that code for growth were not “switched on.” Their moth- ers had passed along a signal to their genes that essentially said, “Don’t grow as big as you can because the environment simply won’t support it” (there’s a disadvantage to being too big when food is limited).
However, by the second generation, these genetic switches were turning on and signaling to the genes that it was now safe to grow larger because the mothers had good nutrition. This can be thought of as the mother “in- heriting” her environment. If a mother inherits a high-quality environment, then she will pass that along to her
fawns, and the same will occur if she inherits a low-quality environment.”
“First and foremost, you are what you eat—but you’re also what your mother and her mother
ate! Our results clearly show that deer in the LCP region of Mississippi are not genetically doomed to have smaller bodies and antlers; they are simply a product of their environment. Once nutrition was improved, LCP bucks started to display their ge- netic potential—but it took time. We feel confident that what we found was an epigenetic effect.
This new epigenetic phenomenon explains how one’s DNA can remain the same while its expres- sion is altered by environmental conditions. One way to think about it is a series of switches within an animal’s genes. If generations of a family have lived in a low-quality habitat, then it’s advanta- geous to “turn off the switch” for the genes that promote a large body and antlers—the advantage is that smaller animals are better suited to the qual- ity of forage in their environment. This “off switch” keeps animals from growing larger in a particularly good year, only to be hurt when forage quality returns to normal. Therefore, this new epigenetics model shows that, in addition to the environment a buck experiences during his lifetime, the habitat quality experienced by his parents and grandpar- ents also is critically important!
This is a remarkable discovery and explains the variation we see in body and antler size far better than the basic genetic model. It is nature’s way of allowing deer (and other animals) to adapt to their environment.
Although the first generation of bucks was raised on the same optimal diet, certain genes that code for growth were not “switched on.” Their moth- ers had passed along a signal to their genes that essentially said, “Don’t grow as big as you can because the environment simply won’t support it” (there’s a disadvantage to being too big when food is limited).
However, by the second generation, these genetic switches were turning on and signaling to the genes that it was now safe to grow larger because the mothers had good nutrition. This can be thought of as the mother “in- heriting” her environment. If a mother inherits a high-quality environment, then she will pass that along to her
fawns, and the same will occur if she inherits a low-quality environment.”
The only way you would have been right is to let him grow to 5 yrs old to see how he turned out.. Your making an assumption on a theory!!! " Once a fork horn always a fork horn"
C.Killmaster
Georgia Deer Biologist
You could do that, but it's harder to judge than counting points.
across the river
Senior Member
I don’t hunt Hancock a lot but the big six points I’ve seen or my buddy has pictures of are forks with a brow. I wouldn’t think the six without brows would be a real issue, as there aren’t a lot of those regardless, unless you are hunting mule deer, which we don’t have.
across the river
Senior Member
I know you know this, but you can’t make everything idiot proof. Put a drawing or picture of a 15” spread or show a 16” main in the regs an go with it. If people can figure it out they need to go to a non “trophy” county or quota to hunt. I hunted a club as a kid with a 15” inside spread rule and never killed a deer that didn’t meet it. It isn’t that hard. If it borderline it’s needs more time anyway.
C.Killmaster
Georgia Deer Biologist
I'm just trying to find a non-complicated way to make a few more mature bucks legal for harvest in the 7 counties with the point restriction.
There are plenty of people who can't correctly estimate 16" at 100 yds. but everybody can count the number of points with a decent set of binocs.
buckpasser
Senior Member
You calling me a dummy? You’re mighty welcome to come look at my antler drum. Ain’t a single one got’ny bigger, and I don’t appreciate you put’n me down.
across the river
Senior Member
I wouldn’t say everybody could do that, that’s probably stretching it. Seriously though, I don’t like the 15” or 16” rule and I’m not advocating it, and that wasn’t the context of my post if you go back and read what I was referring to. What I am saying is if you go straight 4 points to a side, which is better that spread IMO as well, you end up with a bunch of big 6s, which they have in Hancock and I am sure other places with similar rules. If you want people to kill those, which you should, you have to give them an outlet to do so. Most six points won’t be anywhere near 15” if they are young, and most of the big one you want killed will have brow times, which would not allow them to be shot under the other three point rule he mentioned. I wouldn’t think there would be a whole lot of marginal 6 points on the spread rule, which is why I said you can’t idiot proof it. You could still stick with the four points to the side rule for the people who can count and provide the stipulation that any deer over 15 or 16” can be shot as well. All the basket racked 8 that get mowed down now will still be legal, but guys wouldn’t have to just watch when that big six walks by.
treemanjohn
Banned
My home is surrounded by subdivisions and we have acreage. I see deer constantly under zero stress. I have witnessed on two different occasions young immature deer breeding does while larger more mature deer watched or kept eating. You just don't know what you've got even though you're certain you do
Throwback
Chief Big Taw
Just do away with the “4 point rule” for both bucks. Everyone gets one “oops” like the other 150 counties. The other has to be 4 points
If you can change the regulation to one you can change it to the other
If you can change the regulation to one you can change it to the other
This. Thank you sir.
C.Killmaster
Georgia Deer Biologist
I wish, but there would be mutiny.
Throwback
Chief Big Taw
Take the hit for the team ?
C.Killmaster
Georgia Deer Biologist
They asked for it, they can change it if they want through the same process. I might be able to make some minor changes, but nothing major. Even then I would need to survey hunters and landowners in those counties.
Charlie, @C.Killmaster , I commend you for what you do for us. And for your patience with some of these folks. 
C.Killmaster
Georgia Deer Biologist
Charlie, @C.Killmaster , I commend you for what you do for us. And for your patience with some of these folks.
Thanks Nick, you've always been a great friend!
