No need to fear the hot place? Let me preach on it!

oldfella1962

Senior Member
Here we go - put your thinking caps on, consider my argument, and add your thoughts!
1) Jesus was born a Jew and died as a Jew. Christianity was a new religion based on the life teachings, death, and resurrection
of Jesus decades after his death.
2) The Jewish religion from which Jesus emerged has a much different take on heaven & hot place (and the afterlife) than does Christianity as we know it. In a nutshell, The Jewish idea is that the "soul" is part of the breath of life that exists in a LIVING body. When you die, your breath of life/soul dies too. There is no heaven or hot place. EVENTUALLY at the end of time as we know it, we will be judged. The obedient Jews (living or dead) will live forever here on a new Earth forever and the disobedient Jews/unbelievers (living or dead) will be DESTROYED - CEASE TO EXIST in the eternal fire that burns eternally but the bad people do not burn eternally. They burn up and are destroyed, but the fire keeps burning (to keep burning up more bad people maybe?) forever.
3) Since Jesus was a Jew, why would be not believe in the Jewish laws, traditions, procedures, and general worldview? Indeed, Jesus even states in
Matthew 5:17, Jesus emphatically declares that he did not come to abolish the Torah or Prophets but to fulfill them. He begins with the command, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or Prophets”. Also he says
“For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished” (Matt. 5:18, ESV). Here, Jesus uses popular traditions within contemporary Jewish teaching of his time to underline his point about the Torah’s validity.[17] According to David Turner, “It would be hard to make a stronger statement of the ongoing authority of the Torah than that made in 5:18.”
I'm no religious expert, but Jesus seems to be saying that he is a Jew and is not trying to reinvent the wheel and go off the plantation.
4) The concept of the soul going to heaven or the hot place (an eternal soul going to these locations when our physical bodies die) was mainly from the Greek influences influencing the Jews (and believers in the new Jesus cult/religion) who were writing what would be the new testament and the final versions of the old testament.
5) the new testament as we know it wasn't finalized until about THREE OR FOUR CENTURIES (The Council of Nicea maybe?) after the death of Jesus!
Jesus had NO INPUT into the book pr any writings about him! Many books and writings were rejected in the final editing. Basically, whatever "didn't fit the narrative" of the head honchos. If the council wanted to put the fear of the hot place into the final new testament version to ensure compliance and obedience not just to god, but to "the church" wouldn't it make sense to steer the narrative in that direction? Stories (and whole religious canons) are made through purposeful editing and I think almost everybody would agree with that. DISCUSS!
 

brutally honest

Senior Member
Regarding #1 and #3, I think you answer your own questions with this:

“Jesus emphatically declares that he did not come to abolish the Torah or Prophets but to fulfill them.”

The OT ends is a very anticlimactic way. It ends in a very similar way to how the new Dune movie ended: with a view to the future. Jesus is that future.
 

brutally honest

Senior Member
5) the new testament as we know it wasn't finalized until about THREE OR FOUR CENTURIES (The Council of Nicea maybe?) after the death of Jesus!
Jesus had NO INPUT into the book pr any writings about him! Many books and writings were rejected in the final editing. Basically, whatever "didn't fit the narrative" of the head honchos.

The head honchos would have been in a position to know the narrative better than anyone else. Who better to decide on the canon?

Also, when Jesus ascended into heaven, He left a church, not a book. The church precedes the Bible. The church wrote it and preserved it.
 

oldfella1962

Senior Member
#4 - who are the “Greek influencers”? The entire NT was written by Jews (although there are questions about Luke).

I think I said Greek influences, if not it was a typo. Regardless, yes there is Greek influence not just in the NT but in the OT too. Even if the Jews wrote all the NT their culture (thus the writers) was being influenced by Greek ideas. Few countries live in a vacuum, but the area of modern Israel was at a geographic& cultural crossroads back in the day.



Also the council of Nicaea was very "heavy handed" and with that in mind (banishing people for opposing viewpoints) and the fact that once a nation (any nation) claims Christianity as a mandatory state religion (thus political power and religion are linked) there is IMHO no doubt that the narrative would be steered - and opposing writings destroyed or banned - thus the original "message" of its founders would be distorted.

 

brutally honest

Senior Member
I think I said Greek influences, if not it was a typo. Regardless, yes there is Greek influence not just in the NT but in the OT too. Even if the Jews wrote all the NT their culture (thus the writers) was being influenced by Greek ideas. Few countries live in a vacuum, but the area of modern Israel was at a geographic& cultural crossroads back in the day.


The last paragraph of the BYU article:

“Greek philosophy has deeply, profoundly influenced the way Christianity discusses theology. It has not, however, been the origin of Christian belief nor a source of Christian religious ideas.”

I don’t have a problem with that statement.
 

brutally honest

Senior Member
Also the council of Nicaea was very "heavy handed" and with that in mind (banishing people for opposing viewpoints) and the fact that once a nation (any nation) claims Christianity as a mandatory state religion (thus political power and religion are linked) there is IMHO no doubt that the narrative would be steered - and opposing writings destroyed or banned - thus the original "message" of its founders would be distorted.


I think Nicea has an undeserved bad rap. I agree that mixing politics and religion is bad, but Arius’ teaching had stirred up the whole empire. It had to be addressed.
 

oldfella1962

Senior Member
One day you’ll know for sure.
You're right (sort of). An actual real god - not a manmade god - could reveal itself to every human simultaneously and explain everything so far unexplained. :) But the more likely scenario is that I eventually die, and my consciousness dies with me, full stop. :( The upside to that is I won't be alive to go crazy pondering scientific mysteries.
 

Danuwoa

Redneck Emperor
You're right (sort of). An actual real god - not a manmade god - could reveal itself to every human simultaneously and explain everything so far unexplained. :) But the more likely scenario is that I eventually die, and my consciousness dies with me, full stop. :( The upside to that is I won't be alive to go crazy pondering scientific mysteries.
That’s awesome.
 

oldfella1962

Senior Member
I think Nicea has an undeserved bad rap. I agree that mixing politics and religion is bad, but Arius’ teaching had stirred up the whole empire. It had to be addressed.
Arius? I will research him, thanks! But good call on Nicaea, many scholars think it was not as influential on Christianity in general as it seems.
 

oldfella1962

Senior Member
The last paragraph of the BYU article:

“Greek philosophy has deeply, profoundly influenced the way Christianity discusses theology. It has not, however, been the origin of Christian belief nor a source of Christian religious ideas.”

I don’t have a problem with that statement.
Fair enough, but many scholars disagree. That's the challenge of being a historical scholar - there's nothing to empirically test. Educated guesses and educated interpretations are usually all they have to go on.
 

Ruger#3

RAMBLIN ADMIN
Staff member
Olam Haba’ Hebrew for The world to Come, a key element of the Jewish faith.

I'm not a studied expert. I did live with a Jewish family a few years as I shared a home working on the road.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
Many religions believe that H3el-el is the soul spending eternity without the presence of God.
 

SemperFiDawg

Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
Here we go - put your thinking caps on, consider my argument, and add your thoughts!
1) Jesus was born a Jew and died as a Jew. Christianity was a new religion based on the life teachings, death, and resurrection
of Jesus decades after his death.
2) The Jewish religion from which Jesus emerged has a much different take on heaven & hot place (and the afterlife) than does Christianity as we know it. In a nutshell, The Jewish idea is that the "soul" is part of the breath of life that exists in a LIVING body. When you die, your breath of life/soul dies too. There is no heaven or hot place. EVENTUALLY at the end of time as we know it, we will be judged. The obedient Jews (living or dead) will live forever here on a new Earth forever and the disobedient Jews/unbelievers (living or dead) will be DESTROYED - CEASE TO EXIST in the eternal fire that burns eternally but the bad people do not burn eternally. They burn up and are destroyed, but the fire keeps burning (to keep burning up more bad people maybe?) forever.
3) Since Jesus was a Jew, why would be not believe in the Jewish laws, traditions, procedures, and general worldview? Indeed, Jesus even states in
Matthew 5:17, Jesus emphatically declares that he did not come to abolish the Torah or Prophets but to fulfill them. He begins with the command, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or Prophets”. Also he says
“For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished” (Matt. 5:18, ESV). Here, Jesus uses popular traditions within contemporary Jewish teaching of his time to underline his point about the Torah’s validity.[17] According to David Turner, “It would be hard to make a stronger statement of the ongoing authority of the Torah than that made in 5:18.”
I'm no religious expert, but Jesus seems to be saying that he is a Jew and is not trying to reinvent the wheel and go off the plantation.
4) The concept of the soul going to heaven or the hot place (an eternal soul going to these locations when our physical bodies die) was mainly from the Greek influences influencing the Jews (and believers in the new Jesus cult/religion) who were writing what would be the new testament and the final versions of the old testament.
5) the new testament as we know it wasn't finalized until about THREE OR FOUR CENTURIES (The Council of Nicea maybe?) after the death of Jesus!
Jesus had NO INPUT into the book pr any writings about him! Many books and writings were rejected in the final editing. Basically, whatever "didn't fit the narrative" of the head honchos. If the council wanted to put the fear of the hot place into the final new testament version to ensure compliance and obedience not just to god, but to "the church" wouldn't it make sense to steer the narrative in that direction? Stories (and whole religious canons) are made through purposeful editing and I think almost everybody would agree with that. DISCUSS!

WOW. That's a lot of material. Was gonna suggest you break it up into several threads but it looks like the horses are already out of the barn.

After reading and re-reading your first 3 points I think maybe I can best address it like this. Christ didn't create a "New" religion per se. I think it is more accurate to state he fulfilled all the framework of an existing one (Judaism) and brought it to life. In simple terms I conceptualize it as moving the viewer of a charcoal sketch of an underwater reef to literally being immersed and swimming above it. From conceptualizing this:
1671075705160.png

To actually experiencing this:
1671075594920.png

The former(Judaism) is a conceptualization, the later(Christianity) is an experience. It's not that the conceptualization is wrong, or in err in any way. It's completely accurate in everything it depicts.
But, actually experiencing it, one sees and understands it's depth and breadth with a 3 dimensional clarity that the 2 dimensional sketch simply could not convey. This is the impact Christ had on Judaism.

Honestly as to your 4th and 5th points, I don't care to address them. Typical unsubstantiated and opinionated hacks. Had I read this prior to addressing the first 3 points I would have seen this thread for what it is and saved myself some time.
" Basically, whatever "didn't fit the narrative" of the head honchos. If the council wanted to put the fear of the hot place into the final new testament version to ensure compliance and obedience not just to god, but to "the church" wouldn't it make sense to steer the narrative in that direction? Stories (and whole religious canons) are made through purposeful editing and I think almost everybody would agree with that. DISCUSS!"
Bandwagon Fallacy. Look it up.

As an aside, I'm a little disappointed. I had actually garnered some hope that an intelligent discussion had begun only to realize an ad hominem dressed in a straw man outfit. Have fun in your echo chamber oldfella.
 
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Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
Many religions believe that H3el-el is the soul spending eternity without the presence of God.
The Jews idea of heaven is the dwelling place with God so from a Christian persepective - I would not disagree with either group.
 

oldfella1962

Senior Member
Olam Haba’ Hebrew for The world to Come, a key element of the Jewish faith.

I'm not a studied expert. I did live with a Jewish family a few years as I shared a home working on the road.
yep - "the world to come" which will be right here on earth (but a better version of it) where Jews can focus completely on Jewish religious related study & work and of course praising the god that lets you live there. Not exactly a paradise that's for sure, but the alternative is being destroyed/ceasing to exist, which is pretty fair & reasonable IMHO.
 

oldfella1962

Senior Member
Many religions believe that H3el-el is the soul spending eternity without the presence of God.
That's fair! If you didn't seek or believe in god in the real world while alive, why should you get to experience god in the afterlife?
 

oldfella1962

Senior Member
WOW. That's a lot of material. Was gonna suggest you break it up into several threads but it looks like the horses are already out of the barn.

After reading and re-reading your first 3 points I think maybe I can best address it like this. Christ didn't create a "New" religion per se. I think it is more accurate to state he fulfilled all the framework of an existing one (Judaism) and brought it to life. In simple terms I conceptualize it as moving the viewer of a charcoal sketch of an underwater reef to literally being immersed and swimming above it. From conceptualizing this:
View attachment 1196242

To actually experiencing this:
View attachment 1196241

The former(Judaism) is a conceptualization, the later(Christianity) is an experience. It's not that the conceptualization is wrong, or in err in any way. It's completely accurate in everything it depicts.
But, actually experiencing it, one sees and understands it's depth and breadth with a 3 dimensional clarity that the 2 dimensional sketch simply could not convey. This is the impact Christ had on Judaism.

Honestly as to your 4th and 5th points, I don't care to address them. Typical unsubstantiated and opinionated hacks. Had I read this prior to addressing the first 3 points I would have seen this thread for what it is and saved myself some time.

Bandwagon Fallacy. Look it up.

As an aside, I'm a little disappointed. I had actually garnered some hope that an intelligent discussion had begun only to realize an ad hominem dressed in a straw man outfit. Have fun in your echo chamber oldfella.
I respect your opinion. Not every thread is everyone's cup-of-tea.
 
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