Not to confuse time periods with Native American Tribes?

[Artfuldodger]

Yeah, civilization was born through the control of food and with it warfare always followed, this is true anywhere in the world. Conquest was often necessary to impose order. By this I mean you needed to conquer your neighbors so they would not attempt to take your food, goods and land that all came about due to being settled. Through conquest kingdoms/empires arose, kind of like a dog chasing its tail, because your neighbors attempted the same thing and the balance of power always shifted at some point in time.....one always leads to the other and then you throw organized religion into the mix......which is said to be the cement that holds civilization together, you get the story of man kind, the world over. This cycle played out in the Americas too, in some places on a much smaller scale but in other places on a scale near as large as Europe. The Aztecs were as large as most contemporary European societies as were the Teotihuacans who subjugated the lowland Mayans in the 4th century.

Then corn was the wheat of Biblical times or the Europeans and rice was for Asian countries, and potatoes were for Ireland, etc. As much as wheat is mentioned in the Bible, it had to be of utmost importance.
I would assume the religions of the Americas had many references to maize as being just important as wheat.

 

[redneck_billcollector]

Besides war, I wonder if something happened to the corn crop that lead to more fighting or the demise of some of these ancient civilizations? Weather, drought, crop disease, volcanoes, etc?

The mini ice age, which led to climate change in the early 14th century is believed to have played a role, through changing climate patterns leading to drought, is thought to have been the cause for the decline of the Mississippian Culture, it was in this time frame that Cahokia, one of the largest known Mississippian City States, was abandoned and it is also during this time frame that the Anastasi Culture, which also relied upon corn, disappeared. It was a little over 100 years after the onset of this period of climate change when the Spanish appeared upon the scene causing the collapse of this culture in most of the southeast. As Ben pointed out, the culture held out among the Natchez for awhile into the historic period.

 

[redneck_billcollector]

I read that Cahokia was the third largest city during it's time. Plus I'm assuming it had many smaller villages associated with it. I wonder if something happened to the corn crop.

According to what I have read, to include the exhibits at the site, Cahokia is the largest Mississippian archeological site on the continent. I have not visited it in a few years now, so they might have found a larger one. I am sure there were larger contemporary cities in Mesoamerica and the Andes at the time though.

 

[redneck_billcollector]

Please note as a disclaimer, I am a participant in two rather large scale genetic studies dealing with ancestry and I can say for fact certain I have absolutely no native American genetic material via my maternal or paternal lines which only confirmed what I know about my ancestors....My paternal background is largely Scandinavian with some British Isles and a smattering of "other" northwestern European while my maternal background is largely British Isles with a smattering of Scandinavian and "other" northwestern European. I was told during my early years that my family had a rather long history of fighting both Creeks and Seminoles in GA and Florida from colonial days until the end of those conflicts in GA, FLA and ALA. All of my direct ancestors on both sides were in the southeast early on in colonial times (17th century) and were all in GA prior to, and immediately after, the Revolution. I have always looked at American history through those tinted glasses so I have never had a romantic view of native Americans. The founder of my paternal line in America migrated to the colony of New Sweden in what is now Delaware, his oldest son, which is my line, moved to the Carolinas during colonial times with a son of his moving to GA...which was my direct ancestor. The founder of my maternal line in America settled in the colony of Virginia not too long after Jamestown and migrated to GA shortly after its formation as a colony. They married into a number of Jacobite Highland families during the 18th century. I did have a number of Tories in my family tree from my maternal side...hence my fascination with the southern Tories and my early links to Florida, where some of them fled to during the Revolution. My mother is a Glass and is related to Hugh Glass, another man who had issues, so to speak, with native Americans...on an interesting aside note, his portraits look like he was my mother's older brother, they looked almost identical. The reason I say all of the above, our personal background and history always impacts how we view history and it certainly has impacted how I look at history and sadly enough, I have an educational background in history where I was always hard pressed to take my metaphorical glasses off when I looked at history. I willfully admit I have a very Eurocentric (northwestern European slant) view of history which is why I probably never became a historian and ended up pursuing a graduate degree in Law. All the above has absolutely nothing to do with this thread, it is an attempt to explain why my statements appear to be Eurocentric in nature. I at least know what shaped my views on this issue. As both Ben and Nick (who are both personal friends of mine) will tell you, I always take the European side of any discussion with regards to the conflicts between our two peoples and have often been on the opposing side of the "noble savage" debate. However, if you do want to talk about "First Peoples", I do, like pretty much everyone not of African origin, have Neanderthal genetic markers, meaning I do have ancestors which truly were the first peoples of Europe. They now know many of our European traits, such as blue eyes, fair skin, red and blond hair come from Neanderthal genetic material and these were helpful apparently for coping with the colder climates of Ice Age Europe and it is now thought that Homo sapiens did not so much conquer the Neanderthals but that they largely out numbered them and bred with them so much that they disappeared as a subspecies.

 

[Artfuldodger]

According to what I have read, to include the exhibits at the site, Cahokia is the largest Mississippian archeological site on the continent. I have not visited it in a few years now, so they might have found a larger one. I am sure there were larger contemporary cities in Mesoamerica and the Andes at the time though.

What's your take on the first few posts on this thread about the Cherokee vs time periods? What caught my attention was a Cherokee native was more or less saying that all of those settlements and mounds of those long ago time periods, on the Little Tennessee River, were really Cherokee because time periods didn't define tribes but just time periods.

 

[redneck_billcollector]

It is hard to say about them. With regards to mountain societies they tend to be where weaker nations ended up as a sort of refuge, especially in agricultural societies, mountainous areas tend to have less land suitable for agriculture. However, with the American Chestnut, from what I have read about it historically, I would imagine the forest probably provided a rather handily available source of nutrition making up for less suitable land for farming. They speak a dialect of Iroquoian which is a language that evolved around the eastern Great Lakes region but the dialect spoken by the Cherokee appears to have split from the "mother tongue" so to speak a long time ago. Was the society encountered by the early British colonist in the Carolinas the same as the natives of the area in the 14th Century? It is very unlikely, but if it were so, that would mean that the Cherokee were rather archaic compared to their neighbors. I would guess, and it is only a guess, that they were refugees from a pre-Columbian collapsed Mississippian political grouping from the Ohio River Valley. The reason I say this is because De Soto described some towns in the NC/Tenn border area that were mighty similar to the Cherokee of later periods which would indicate that they had already undergone a cultural collapse similar to Cahokia in the 14th Century (more than likely due to a cooling climate leading to a failed agricultural system) I would imagine that the Ohio River Valley would have similar conditions as the area around St. Louis where Cahokia was located.

 

[redneck_billcollector]

What's your take on the first few posts on this thread about the Cherokee vs time periods? What caught my attention was a Cherokee native was more or less saying that all of those settlements and mounds of those long ago time periods, on the Little Tennessee River, were really Cherokee because time periods didn't define tribes but just time periods.

Interestingly enough, much of the origin of the Cherokee that is published deals largely with the oral tradition of that nation. However, I would take it with a grain of salt simply because that same oral tradition mentions when they migrated to the region they are historically associated with, the only inhabitants were the "moon-eyed" people and according to this tradition the moon-eyed people were not able to see during daylight hours and could only see at night. Basically the "natives" they displaced were technically blind during day light hours...and for the life of me, I know of no culture anywhere in the world that could only see at night. Maybe they encountered some people who were possibly struck blind by some European disease but I can think of no disease associated with the Europeans that did that.

 

[redneck_billcollector]

After some research, I found that herpes simplex can cause blindness.....but that is in modern societies, maybe somehow it spread in the southern Appalachian mountains but I have not heard of it mentioned as a disease that the Europeans brought with them and exposed the natives to, plus De Soto's journal mentions some people in that area that sound a lot like the Cherokees.

 

[Artfuldodger]

After some research, I found that herpes simplex can cause blindness.....but that is in modern societies, maybe somehow it spread in the southern Appalachian mountains but I have not heard of it mentioned as a disease that the Europeans brought with them and exposed the natives to, plus De Soto's journal mentions some people in that area that sound a lot like the Cherokees.

I have heard of the moon eyed people. I'm sorta leaning on the Cherokee coming from somewhere later after the other earlier civilizations either died or moved on.

I guess technicality they could be distantly kin in the sense that we are kin to whoever moved to Great Britain before people lived there.

 

[NCHillbilly]

It is hard to say about them. With regards to mountain societies they tend to be where weaker nations ended up as a sort of refuge, especially in agricultural societies, mountainous areas tend to have less land suitable for agriculture. However, with the American Chestnut, from what I have read about it historically, I would imagine the forest probably provided a rather handily available source of nutrition making up for less suitable land for farming. They speak a dialect of Algonquin which is a language that evolved around the Great Lakes region but the dialect spoken by the Cherokee appears to have split from the "mother tongue" so to speak a long time ago. Was the society encountered by the early British colonist in the Carolinas the same as the natives of the area in the 14th Century? It is very unlikely, but if it were so, that would mean that the Cherokee were rather archaic compared to their neighbors. I would guess, and it is only a guess, that they were refugees from a pre-Columbian collapsed Mississippian political grouping from the Ohio River Valley. The reason I say this is because De Soto described some towns in the NC/Tenn border area that were mighty similar to the Cherokee of later periods which would indicate that they had already undergone a cultural collapse similar to Cahokia in the 14th Century (more than likely due to a cooling climate leading to a failed agricultural system) I would imagine that the Ohio River Valley would have similar conditions as the area around St. Louis where Cahokia was located.

Everything I have seen puts the Cherokee in the Iroquoian language group, not the Algonquin?

 

[westcobbdog]

Watching Josh Gates or one of those type investigative History TV shows, a man from Ga. was claiming the Mayans migrated into Fla. then up into N Ga., specifically to what is now Batesville Ga., building smaller versions of mounds and temples.

 

[redneck_billcollector]

Everything I have seen puts the Cherokee in the Iroquoian language group, not the Algonquin?

My mistake, yeah. I always mix those two up. I was reading a book about the french fur trade when I wrote that post and had algonquin on my mind, so to speak. Have edited.

 

[NCHillbilly]

Watching Josh Gates or one of those type investigative History TV shows, a man from Ga. was claiming the Mayans migrated into Fla. then up into N Ga., specifically to what is now Batesville Ga., building smaller versions of mounds and temples.

I saw that, and think it's mostly hogwash. I do think the Mississippian culture had contact with and was heavily influenced by the central American cultures.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I found a few articles that touched on the Maya sailing to Florida.

The Cross-Gulf Travel Theory proposes the idea that ancient Maya came to southwest Florida when devastating droughts occurred on the Yucatán Peninsula of Mexico as early as the 9th century, and that they ended up around Lake Okeechobee.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Lots of theories and speculation. It's interesting to read it all. Heck they still haven't even decided where Fort Caroline was much less the travels of ancient civilizations.

I'm reading about the Potanou, who along with two other tribes, controlled the gold deposits in Georgia’s Appalachian Mountains. They would bring the gold to Ocala in Florida.
When the Spanish conquistador Hernando de Soto first landed in Tampa Bay, Florida in 1539 he immediately asked the local natives where he could find gold. The natives were unanimous in their replies– a province called Ocalé (pronounced Ocala.)

Even if Ocala was a Mayan Province, is there enough evidence that they had other provinces in Georgia? Yet if they were mining gold in the mountains, one would think they at least had settlements up there.
That still doesn't say they had huge settlements and mounds like the ones on the Little Tennessee River.

 

[Artfuldodger]

This is interesting in how they would get their gold from Georgia, down the Ocmulgee & Oconee, and Altamaha, down the coast to the St. Johns, up the Ocklawaha River to Silver Springs.
It would have to be carried across land for 24 miles from Silver Springs to Rainbow Springs and to the Gulf on the Withlacoochee River.

Part of this route was what the state of Florida was gonna used for the Cross Florida Barge Canal. That project was started but abandoned.

https://lostworlds.org/ocala-mayan-province-florida/

 

[chehawknapper]

In regard to the first thoughts of this, I believe that the Cherokee were already in the lower Appalachians since many of the towns that DeSoto noted were from the Cherokee language. But, as Jay noted, there were many other language groups mixed in among them in close proximity such as the Chiaha, Yuchi and others. Keep in mind there was no “Creek tribe” until modern times. Towns, talwas, were separate entities speaking Muskogee, Hitchiti, Yuchi, Shawnee and others.

 

[mark1j]

When Lawson went through what are now the Carolinas in 1700, he described often traveling 20 miles in a day, and encountering people that afternoon who spoke a totally different language from the ones they stayed with last night.

I enjoy reading about this stuff. Is there a book or journal with this information about the "travels" of Lawson through the Carolinas?

 

[NCHillbilly]

I enjoy reading about this stuff. Is there a book or journal with this information about the "travels" of Lawson through the Carolinas?

Yes. It's called "A New Voyage to Carolina" by John Lawson. Very interesting reading. Details his journey, then goes into detail about all the land, animals, fish, critters, and native people.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Yes. It's called "A New Voyage to Carolina" by John Lawson. Very interesting reading. Details his journey, then goes into detail about all the land, animals, fish, critters, and native people.

Thanks! I found a PDF file of the book posted by UNC. Wow, over 300 years ago.
It's very interesting and I haven't even left the Islands of Scilly!

https://rla.unc.edu/archives/accounts/lawson/Lawson.pdf