Once Saved Always Saved (added pt 2 post #90)

[Artfuldodger]

This is all about predestination not OSAS.

You brought up the origin of OSAS in post #9; "convinced that "once saved always saved" comes from Calvin's doctrines of the total depravity of man."

Plus you went on to mention predestination and double predestination in relation to OSAS.

Perhaps it's so much a part of predestination that it can't be separated. At least since you made the connection, give others the time to explain the connection.

 

[Madman]

It responds to your question about Augustin with a cherry (Thomas) on top.

To what do you refer by "this"?

Your references to Augustin and Aquinas.

 

[Madman]

You brought up the origin of OSAS in post #9; "convinced that "once saved always saved" comes from Calvin's doctrines of the total depravity of man."

Plus you went on to mention predestination and double predestination in relation to OSAS.

Perhaps it's so much a part of predestination that it can't be separated. At least since you made the connection, give others the time to explain the connection.

No I said OSAS was a response to Calvin's version of predestination.

 

[hummerpoo]

Your references to Augustin and Aquinas.

Obviously, we are not reading from the same perspective, likely resulting from consideration of different, and/or differently valued, source material.

No I said OSAS was a response to Calvin's version of predestination.

Art, please forgive my intrusion.

That would not be possible, considering the very similar concept of "Preservation" which had been widely believed for over a millenium. The distinction between Preservation and OSAS being, not the result (eternal life), but the human influence on initiation of faith or belief; which clearly shows that OSAS is not a response to Calvin or Thomas, or Augustin, or any of the multitude who held to similar doctrine prior to the Reformation, but to the doctrine promoted and espoused by Jacobus Arminius and those who further developed that doctrine after his death.

 

[Madman]

Obviously, we are not reading from the same perspective, likely resulting from consideration of different, and/or differently valued, source material.


Art, please forgive my intrusion.

That would not be possible, considering the very similar concept of "Preservation" which had been widely believed for over a millenium. The distinction between Preservation and OSAS being, not the result (eternal life), but the human influence on initiation of faith or belief; which clearly shows that OSAS is not a response to Calvin or Thomas, or Augustin, or any of the multitude who held to similar doctrine prior to the Reformation, but to the doctrine promoted and espoused by Jacobus Arminius and those who further developed that doctrine after his death.

Is your position that Augustin and Aquinus held to the doctrine of OSAS.

If you will read original text from Calvin it is evident he did teach some were elect for heaven and some for he11, and later Calvinists such as Hodge, Geisler, Etc. Taught it also.

You have taken a path far off the OP. My point was OSAS was a further interpretation of Calvin's election doctrine and the Church (the world wide church, even if some individuals did discuss predestination) never has taught OSAS. If you still hold to that view please quote from any of the first 7 ecumenical councils that states your position.

 

[Madman]

You brought up the origin of OSAS in post #9; "convinced that "once saved always saved" comes from Calvin's doctrines of the total depravity of man."

Plus you went on to mention predestination and double predestination in relation to OSAS.

Perhaps it's so much a part of predestination that it can't be separated. At least since you made the connection, give others the time to explain the connection.

I say OSAS eases the mind of those who can not bear the though that God would create some for salvation and some for dam*ation.
OSAS at least allows people some sense of free will.

 

[Madman]

Do you honestly think you had a choice? If so, why? It is God who chooses us, He quickens us and redeems us from start to finish. The Bible said we are DEAD in our trespasses and sins, and we can not respond in any way shape form or fashion if we are dead. Salvation from beginning to end is of the Lord.

If I am saved it is all God, if I am not it is all me.

 

[furtaker]

It's not everlasting life if you can lose it. It's temporary life that you try to hold onto by good works.

 

[Madman]

"Life is a gift. Each one of us is unique, known by name, and loved by the One who fashioned us. Unfortunately, there is a very loud, consistent, and powerful message coming to us from our world that leads us to believe that we must prove our belovedness by how we look, by what we have, and by what we can accomplish. We become preoccupied with “making it” in this life, and we are very slow to grasp the liberating truth of our origins and our finality. We need to hear the message announced and the message emboldened over and over again. Only then do we find the courage to claim it and live from it."

Henri Nouwen

Very sweet.

 

[Madman]

It's not everlasting life if you can lose it. It's temporary life that you try to hold onto by good works.

Interesting thought, good tag line, however I do look for Biblical precident.

 

[furtaker]

Interesting thought, good tag line, however I do look for Biblical precident.

I do too. It's impossible to believe in salvation by grace without simultaneously believing in eternal security.

 

[hummerpoo]

Is your position that Augustin and Aquinus held to the doctrine of OSAS.

Please read my previous post which explains this.

If you will read original text from Calvin it is evident he did teach some were elect for heaven and some for he11, and later Calvinists such as Hodge, Geisler, Etc. Taught it also.

I read neither Latin not French, but I have read both the Beverage and Battles English translations of The Institutes, and translations of a few other documents, but I confess the it wasn't last month, as a matter of fact, it took me two years. As I recall he holds that, in your terms, some are elect for heaven and some are not, and that is different. If you will give me a citation from The Institutes I will be happy to look it up, my memory certainly isn't what it once was. If the citation is from another document it could be a while.

You have taken a path far off the OP. My point was OSAS was a further interpretation of Calvin's election doctrine and the Church (the world wide church, even if some individuals did discuss predestination) never has taught OSAS.

Previously addressed by me without refutation.

If you still hold to that view please quote from any of the first 7 ecumenical councils that states your position.

If you will provide your preferred translation of the original documents I will be happy to review them.

(Edit) note that I did not say interpretation of commentary.

 

[Madman]

Please read my previous post which explains this.


I read neither Latin not French, but I have read both the Beverage and Battles English translations of The Institutes, and translations of a few other documents, but I confess the it wasn't last month, as a matter of fact, it took me two years. As I recall he holds that, in your terms, some are elect for heaven and some are not, and that is different. If you will give me a citation from The Institutes I will be happy to look it up, my memory certainly isn't what it once was. If the citation is from another document it could be a while.


Previously addressed by me without refutation.



If you will provide your preferred translation of the original documents I will be happy to review them.

(Edit) note that I did not say interpretation of commentary.

It is not possible to provide either affirmations nor refutations of arguments that have never been put forth. OSAS has never been affirmed by the Church.

 

[Madman]

I'm doudtful, but uncertain, that we have a record of Calvin saying that, but to the question at hand; what significant distinction is there in Augustin?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism

"
Calvin's writings[edit]
John Calvin taught double predestination. He wrote the foundational work on this topic, Institutes of the Christian Religion (1539), while living in Strasbourg after his expulsion from Geneva and consulting regularly with the Reformed theologian Martin Bucer.[3][13] Calvin's belief in the uncompromised "sovereignty of God" spawned his doctrines of providence and predestination. For the world, without providence it would be "unlivable". For individuals, without predestination "no one would be saved".[14]

Calvin's doctrine of providence is straightforward. "All events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God." Therefore, “nothing happens but what [God] has knowingly and willingly decreed.” This excludes "fortune and chance."[15] Calvin applied his doctrine of providence concerning "all events" to individuals and their salvation in his doctrine of predestination.

Calvin opened his exposition of predestination with an "actual fact". The "actual fact" that Calvin observed was that even among those to whom "the covenant of life" is preached, it does not gain the same acceptance.[16] Although, "all are called to repentance and faith", in actual fact, "the spirit of repentance and faith is not given to all".[17]

Calvin turned to the teachings of Jesus for a theological interpretation of the diversity that some people accept the "covenant of life" and some do not. Pointing to the Parable of the Sower, Calvin observed, "it is no new thing for the seed to fall among thorns or in stony places".[18] In Jesus’ teaching in John 6:65 that "no one can come to me unless it has been granted him by my Father", Calvin found the key to his theological interpretation of the diversity.[19]

For Calvin's biblically-based theology, this diversity reveals the "unsearchable depth of the divine judgment", a judgment "subordinate to God's purpose of eternal election". God offers salvation to some, but not to all. To many this seems a perplexing subject, because they deem it "incongruous that... some should be predestinated to salvation, and others to destruction". However, Calvin asserted that the incongruity can be resolved by proper views concerning "election and predestination".[20]

Thus, Calvin based his theological description of people as "predestinated to life or to death" on biblical authority and "actual fact".[21] Calvin noted that Scripture requires that we "consider this great mystery" of predestination, but he also warned against unrestrained "human curiosity" regarding it.[22] For believers, knowing that "the cause of our salvation did not proceed from us, but from God alone" evokes gratitude.[23]"

 

[hummerpoo]

It is not possible to provide either affirmations nor refutations of arguments that have never been put forth. OSAS has never been affirmed by the Church.

Please notice that your statement to which I responded is a compound sentence.

 

[Foxfire]

OSAS. Not TRUE !!!

Foxfire/Y2KZ71

 

[hummerpoo]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism

"
Calvin's writings[edit]
John Calvin taught double predestination. He wrote the foundational work on this topic, Institutes of the Christian Religion (1539), while living in Strasbourg after his expulsion from Geneva and consulting regularly with the Reformed theologian Martin Bucer.[3][13] Calvin's belief in the uncompromised "sovereignty of God" spawned his doctrines of providence and predestination. For the world, without providence it would be "unlivable". For individuals, without predestination "no one would be saved".[14]

Calvin's doctrine of providence is straightforward. "All events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God." Therefore, “nothing happens but what [God] has knowingly and willingly decreed.” This excludes "fortune and chance."[15] Calvin applied his doctrine of providence concerning "all events" to individuals and their salvation in his doctrine of predestination.

Calvin opened his exposition of predestination with an "actual fact". The "actual fact" that Calvin observed was that even among those to whom "the covenant of life" is preached, it does not gain the same acceptance.[16] Although, "all are called to repentance and faith", in actual fact, "the spirit of repentance and faith is not given to all".[17]

Calvin turned to the teachings of Jesus for a theological interpretation of the diversity that some people accept the "covenant of life" and some do not. Pointing to the Parable of the Sower, Calvin observed, "it is no new thing for the seed to fall among thorns or in stony places".[18] In Jesus’ teaching in John 6:65 that "no one can come to me unless it has been granted him by my Father", Calvin found the key to his theological interpretation of the diversity.[19]

For Calvin's biblically-based theology, this diversity reveals the "unsearchable depth of the divine judgment", a judgment "subordinate to God's purpose of eternal election". God offers salvation to some, but not to all. To many this seems a perplexing subject, because they deem it "incongruous that... some should be predestinated to salvation, and others to destruction". However, Calvin asserted that the incongruity can be resolved by proper views concerning "election and predestination".[20]

Thus, Calvin based his theological description of people as "predestinated to life or to death" on biblical authority and "actual fact".[21] Calvin noted that Scripture requires that we "consider this great mystery" of predestination, but he also warned against unrestrained "human curiosity" regarding it.[22] For believers, knowing that "the cause of our salvation did not proceed from us, but from God alone" evokes gratitude.[23]"

Unresponsive.

what you posted is an interpretation based on third party opinion. I asked for a citation from Calvin.

(edit) It does however confirm what I said "the spirit of repentance and faith is not given to all".

Over all "Judus hung himself. " "Go he therefore and do likewise. " is just as useful.

 

[Spineyman]

John 10:25-30

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, [a]as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

 

[Artfuldodger]

If I am saved it is all God, if I am not it is all me.

If your salvation is "all God," how can losing it not be? If you did nothing to gain your salvation, how can you do something to lose it?

 

[gordon 2]

And I give them eternal life ....


So this is what saved is!!!!!! to have eternal life!

Now could it be that some think they know what eternal life is and is not? They have checked scripture on it and judge that so and so ain't got it, yet I, or we do?

How does one know they are in God's hand not to be snatched? How does one know they got eternal life, sure, guaranteed? Saved and to eternal life, can I go dancing 40 yrs with the idol worshipers... and then return to my Father's table... no questions asked? Impossible you say? I was not to it. Well 2Peter2 seems to say different?

2Peter2 seems to indicate that some had eternal life but because of lusts got themselves out of the way to be worse off than when they had not salvation or eternal life. So although God still has these folk in his hand, not to be snatched, does it mean they continue with the satisfactions of those earnest in the way and at home with God? Or does it mean that like prodigal sons.. Father will welcome back home if that son chooses to return and re-engage in relationship?

If I have eternal life and decide go the other way to it and use my body''s and mind's cravings to venture in acts outside of eternal life motivated works, because I know to use my youthful God given body and my mind smarts at deceptions, to trick the world, before it all goes, with the idea that given enough time I will return to Him when my physical and metal graces are undone and my deceptions and jigs no longer work, and my bag of tricks are old and then resume with my place in His hand, cause I know I've a place there, besides I have only raided the world that was of no account to begin with... I have used their monies and their mouths so the world could use less of it ---is this possible that I will be welcomed there in my father's hand... where there is a place for me?

Or today I will chose the lights of the world, today I'm to their boardwalks, when in Rome... and tomorrow I will return to the lights of eternal life...when in the Kingdom. It is not a fifty-fifty chance at nothing after all-- because my place in God's hand makes it 100 percent chance at somethin heavenly?