Psalm 16. Messianic application to the Jews in the days of Paul and Peter.

gordon 2

Senior Member
I have read that Psalm 16, especially verse 10 was to the Jews in the days of Paul and Peter and perhaps it still is, referring to the Messiah and the individual. However, I can't find first sources where Jews have said this or even hinted at it. Can anyone help me in this?

Now I know that Paul and Peter and Christians ever since refer to it as indicative of the resurrection of Jesus, but this is not what I'm after.

It seems that since Paul and Peter believed it had relevance to the Jews of their day, and that some biblical footnotes indicate that the Jews admitted there was some Jewish agreement that it was messianic in meaning... there must be other sources that indicate this from the Jews themselves.

I know that from Acts 13 that the "gentiles who feared God", as Paul and Barnabas ministered to them in the Synagogues, that for them ( gentiles) the implications of the Messiah rubbing out physical death seems an essential to seeing the validity of the resurrection on a personal level and indeed pointing out that Jesus was indeed the promised Savoir.

So where and how did the gentiles learn this or know this so as to make Jesus plain to who he was and the implication for them? I have to assume it is from the Jews?

So again what is a first source or sources that the Jews understood that physical death removed from man's life was applied to the Messiah? I have tried to research this on the net, but I always get Christian perspective or Jewish perspectives that indicate that the reference is not to the individual but to Israel or Jewish people in general.

( It seems to me that from a purely logical aspect ( from a gentile perspective perhaps) the idea that since eternal life was not a given since the fall and that physical death was, the restoration to eternal life via the resurrection and the gift of Comforter was also indicative of some sort of physical immortality. But is it this simple?)

So again, anyone have references for Jewish ideas current in the days of Paul and Peter on Psalm 16 where Jews did agree that verse 10 is indicative of aspect of the Messiah?
 
Last edited:

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
As you have discovered, Jews of today work backwards attempting to eliminate Jesus as a possible Messiah. Finding information from that time period is likely impossible. Maybe the writings of the historian Josephus? I don't see how it could not be a reference to the Messiah. It surely was not Israel. Yet.... we can't also just read it looking for quotes to pull out that seemingly look like they fit. An example is the "tent peg". It seemingly originally looks like it points to Jesus but then ends in a way that we deny it so. Isiah 22 20-25
 
Last edited:

gordon 2

Senior Member
As you have discovered, Jews of today work backwards attempting to eliminate Jesus as a possible Messiah. Finding information from that time period is likely impossible. Maybe the writings of the historian Josephus? I don't see how it could not be a reference to the Messiah. It surely was not Israel. Yet.... we can't also just read it looking for quotes to pull out that seemingly look like they fit. An example is the "tent peg". It seemingly originally looks like it points to Jesus but then ends in a way that we deny it so. Isiah 22 20-25


This is what I'm reading right now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_of_the_dead

and this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah_in_Judaism

>>>! https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/messiah
 
Last edited:

1gr8bldr

Senior Member

gordon 2

Senior Member
This first link, is very different than most all of what I have seen over the years. 95% of what I have seen even try to say that the Messiah will die. They do this in reverse in an effort to resist christianity. I will get to the other links soon


The last link ( seems of academic discipline) (and with much independence of bias comparatively) and is very dense in meanings and explanations. It will take me more than two or three readings...

My mind is forming a simple idea why Jesus as the Messiah was more easily and generally acceptable to God fearing gentiles. Simply the personal and spiritual Messiah presented as Jesus conformed to what they knew to be spiritual essentials of the Messiah and He was independent of Zionism! --- which Zionism would politically and spiritually (for Jewish eschatology) relegate them to vassal peoples of the Jews! And so Christianity in the gentile nations was like wild fire! There was one Lord and that Lord was Jesus and no nation or peoples could lord it over anyone or any other. And spiritually and existentially this made tremendous sense, gave hope and was freeing to the individual regardless of ethnic origin.
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
The last link ( seems of academic discipline) (and with much independence of bias comparatively) and is very dense in meanings and explanations. It will take me more than two or three readings...

My mind is forming a simple idea why Jesus as the Messiah was more easily and generally acceptable to God fearing gentiles. Simply the personal and spiritual Messiah presented as Jesus conformed to what they knew to be spiritual essentials of the Messiah and He was independent of Zionism! --- which Zionism would politically and spiritually (for Jewish eschatology) relegate them to vassal peoples of the Jews! And so Christianity in the gentile nations was like wild fire! There was one Lord and that Lord was Jesus and no nation or peoples could lord it over anyone or any other. And spiritually and existentially this made tremendous sense, gave hope and was freeing to the individual regardless of ethnic origin.
Interesting topic. Most of my searches were why the Jews don't accept jesus as the Messiah. Which is where my last responses were founded. I enjoy a good topic to ponder over. This is a good one.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
This
Interesting topic. Most of my searches were why the Jews don't accept jesus as the Messiah. Which is where my last responses were founded. I enjoy a good topic to ponder over. This is a good one.

Yes I think so. A good topic not easy to exhaust. For breaks may I suggest.

:)

 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
The time period of 325 is not the time period your referring to, however, the study of how Christianity went from being persecuted to the latest and greatest "in thing" like being a member of a ritzy country club, is very interesting. But your speaking of the days of Peter and Paul. All that I know of to reflect on is the bible itself. The early church fathers were not of this time period. Maybe Polycarp? You probably don't wish to go this route, however.... Historians like Bart Erhman, even though he is an atheist, he in no way ever speaks as though something is not true, as if to deconvert anyone. He is the very, highly knowledgeable about early church, and the time periods, the traditions, Jewish life, etc. If I recall, he has several books with topics seemingly close to this thought. I know this sounds wrong, but, he would be the best bible teacher anyone of us have ever experienced.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
The time period of 325 is not the time period your referring to, however, the study of how Christianity went from being persecuted to the latest and greatest "in thing" like being a member of a ritzy country club, is very interesting. But your speaking of the days of Peter and Paul. All that I know of to reflect on is the bible itself. The early church fathers were not of this time period. Maybe Polycarp? You probably don't wish to go this route, however.... Historians like Bart Erhman, even though he is an atheist, he in no way ever speaks as though something is not true, as if to deconvert anyone. He is the very, highly knowledgeable about early church, and the time periods, the traditions, Jewish life, etc. If I recall, he has several books with topics seemingly close to this thought. I know this sounds wrong, but, he would be the best bible teacher anyone of us have ever experienced.


Merci.
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
What's your thoughts on the premise??? Meaning, are you confident that... the Gentiles accepted Jesus as the Messiah more readily than the Jews???. Seemingly, on the surface, that's sort of assumed. However, I wonder if it's skewed to a small degree. Meaning that... The Jews, we somewhat expected them to accept Jesus, from our perspective. The Gentiles, not as much. And, most of Peter's audience, his converts, are not written about as much. So, my point is, can we know if Paul's influence to the Gentiles was greater than Peter's influence to the Jews, in terms of numbers? Interesting to ponder. I do believe it was an easier sell to the Gentiles. Because the Jews put much stock in rules and traditions. It would be a much harder sell to now convince them to buy into the fact that Jesus freed them from these rules.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
What's your thoughts on the premise??? Meaning, are you confident that... the Gentiles accepted Jesus as the Messiah more readily than the Jews???. Seemingly, on the surface, that's sort of assumed. However, I wonder if it's skewed to a small degree. Meaning that... The Jews, we somewhat expected them to accept Jesus, from our perspective. The Gentiles, not as much. And, most of Peter's audience, his converts, are not written about as much. So, my point is, can we know if Paul's influence to the Gentiles was greater than Peter's influence to the Jews, in terms of numbers? Interesting to ponder. I do believe it was an easier sell to the Gentiles. Because the Jews put much stock in rules and traditions. It would be a much harder sell to now convince them to buy into the fact that Jesus freed them from these rules.

Well this is part of it:

Acts 13

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45 When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us:

“‘I have made you[f] a light for the Gentiles,
that you[g] may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’[h]”
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.


49 The word of the Lord spread through the whole region. 50 But the Jewish leaders incited the God-fearing women of high standing and the leading men of the city. They stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them from their region. 51 So they shook the dust off their feet as a warning to them and went to Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

In terms of population numbers... hum.... I don't know right off, but Christianity bloomed following Paul's ministry... It shook the whole gentile world and possibly more... and don't forget Tomas in India! And don't forget that Peter was to Rome also...

So Paul's point that he was the minister of "light" to the gentiles combined with the frictions that one would expect with some Jews seems to be important for the gentiles to the extent that the gentiles were "glad" with the good news and thus the spreading of this news!

On the other had I would expect that Peter was to a hornet's nest of Jewish factions with oppositions coming at him from all sides,---flanks, front, and back. And so for the conflicting views alone many individuals would hesitate, wait and back away. Paul's subjects on the other hand had less reservations... to agreement and conversion. Perhaps?
 
Last edited:

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
Well this is part of it:

Acts 13

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45 When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us:

“‘I have made you[f] a light for the Gentiles,
that you[g] may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’[h]”
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.


49 The word of the Lord spread through the whole region. 50 But the Jewish leaders incited the God-fearing women of high standing and the leading men of the city. They stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them from their region. 51 So they shook the dust off their feet as a warning to them and went to Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
Very thought provoking...
The context here... I'm just not sure???? Was it Jews... or converted Jews... who were oposing Paul's freedom teaching? There was great conflict among Peter's converts and Paul's converts. However. The idea that jews were not to associate with Gentiles, as if they were unclean.... seemed to be over in an instant once Peter told of his dream. I find that strange, that all at once, they no longer look down on Gentiles
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
I read that Jew's made up about 7% of the people in Paul's day. This is unverified. Interesting that the Jews and their covenant expectations, had no inclination to convert anyone after they, themselves had been converted. Maybe this is why Peter never traveled to spread the gospel. But Paul, on the other hand, was motivated to spread the gospel, to travel and bring the Gospel to other locations. This in itself, would surely result in more Gentiles coming to Christ than Jews. And, Paul's writings were not so much about his teaching as it was about confronting issues he had heard about in previous churches he had left. As if, he assumed the church capable of sustaining itself, led by the Holy Spirit, him mostly writing about questions that arise. So, this to, does not give us a complete look at conversions of Jew or Gentile. Acts seems to be the best source for this. Whew, this has led to my mind going in every direction
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Very thought provoking...
The context here... I'm just not sure???? Was it Jews... or converted Jews... who were oposing Paul's freedom teaching? There was great conflict among Peter's converts and Paul's converts. However. The idea that jews were not to associate with Gentiles, as if they were unclean.... seemed to be over in an instant once Peter told of his dream. I find that strange, that all at once, they no longer look down on Gentiles


Well I suspect that the attempts to proselytize which required knowledge of scripture and that in fact scripture study and readings were part of praying, soon it must of come up that if Jesus was the Messiah according to prophecy then the gentiles, not only the Jews were included because they also were in prophecy ( in scripture) regards salvation-redemption-Messiah etc...

The idea of no association with Gentiles, which I suspect was mostly regards spiritual belief, was mostly the idea as per Psalm 16 where idols and idol worshipers were fools not to calmly fool with. ( Did you notice in the last link what the Jewish views regards Christians were in the middle ages? Wow! No wonder that there were severe conflicts!!!!!!!!!! And especially in an age with most likely ignorant and little tolerance for other beliefs by Christians! Simply if I understood correctly Christians were agents of Satin and were included in Jewish eschatology as such...!!!!!!!!!!!!! Darn give each side a Cromwell figure and it ain't gonna be peaceful for long.
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
I always get resistance to that. It would be so interesting to change the cover of one of his books with another author. His reflections on Paul, and Paul's previous life, his specific pedigree, his prescriptive life to please God, etc, and how he transformed the world by taking the gospel to the world, and how this gospel effected the world in ways we will never grasp, how it changed the Roman empire from that of Dominance to of good will..... way beyond any teacher I have ever heard. His full insight has the potential to put you on those dirt streets
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
To me it seems clear that it was Jews by heritage that were in conflict with Paul... and not so much gentile converts... ( but I might be wrong).
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
Well I suspect that the attempts to proselytize which required knowledge of scripture and that in fact scripture study and readings were part of praying, soon it must of come up that if Jesus was the Messiah according to prophecy then the gentiles, not only the Jews were included because they also were in prophecy ( in scripture) regards salvation-redemption-Messiah etc...

The idea of no association with Gentiles, which I suspect was mostly regards spiritual belief, was mostly the idea as per Psalm 16 where idols and idol worshipers were fools not to calmly fool with. ( Did you notice in the last link what the Jewish views regards Christians were in the middle ages? Wow! No wonder that there were severe conflicts!!!!!!!!!! And especially in an age with most likely ignorant and little tolerance for other beliefs by Christians! Simply if I understood correctly Christians were agents of Satin and were included in Jewish eschatology as such...!!!!!!!!!!!!! Darn give each side a Cromwell figure and it ain't gonna be peaceful for long.
I just finished reading after my computer battery died last night. Sorry, but I have trouble absorbing that much info. A good writer might help me, however the format is information, of which I was on overload. Most of those ideas, in an overview way, I had seen before. But your point ending with exclamations, I'm sorry, I missed it.
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
To me it seems clear that it was Jews by heritage that were in conflict with Paul... and not so much gentile converts... ( but I might be wrong).
Acts is likely not in perfect order. It likely speaks of Peter, then Paul, and in part, not always overlapping. If it is in order, then chapter 12 and 13 seemingly implies that Peter's converts were the one's who became jealous of the streets being full of those anxious to hear from Paul. I admit this is ambigious and as I said, not in order so it should not imply such. But for sure. Either the traditional Jews were jealous of the gentile crowds eager to hear the gospel teachings, or..... the converted to Christianity Jews were jealous of them. Maybe the answer is in the points of dispute? I can't recall what examples, if any were given. I appreciate the thought provoking conversation. LOL, I'm bored today. Raining here, and my home to do check list is almost completed
 
Top