( Rom. 8:27-30 ) Foreordination And Predestination

Thread starter #1
Words foreordain and predestinate come from the same Greek word proordzo, meaning to determine beforehand. It is translated determined before ( Acts 4:28 ), predestinated ( Rom. 8:29, 30; Eph. 1:5, 11 ), and ordained (1 Cor. 2:7 ). In these passages we find that God predestinated Christ to die for the world ( Acts 4:28 ); that some [ it is not stated who or which ones ) would be saved by believing on Jesus as their Savior ( Rom. 8:29, 30 ); that those who would freely choose to be saved were predestinated to be holy and to be children of God through Christ ( Eph. 1:5 ); that these children of God have a predestinated inheritance according to the eternal purpose ( Eph. 1:11 ); that they were predestined to be enlightened with wisdom kept secret from of old ( 1 Cor. 2:7 ); but no statement is made that God's predestined plan and purpose includes the free acts of free moral agents nor does it name those who will conform to the plan. This means that God's law is the thing that is predestinated and not the individual conformity to it. All Scripture is clear that men are absolutely free to choose for themselves whether they conform to the predestined plan or not ( John 3:16-20; Rev. 22:17 ). Those that do conform will enjoy forever the predestined blessings and those who do not will suffer eternally the predestined judgments of the plan. This and this alone, is all that the Bible teaches concerning predestination in connection with free moral agents.
 

Israel

Senior Member
Lot of writing there quoting Paul. Do you know of Paul's account of his conversion? What part incorporates

that those who would freely choose to be saved
with his account?
 
I wonder if the eternal personage of the Godhead known as Son had a choice in coming to the earth incarnate as a man? Did that same personage once incarnate perform his will or that of the personage known as Father?

I'm assuming some of it was foreordained and/or predestinate. Perhaps the God personage of Jesus was predestined and the man personage had free will. Yet both were ordained.
 
Thread starter #5
Acts 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

predetermine ( Rom. 8:29 ). It is God's determined counsel to save sinners. Jesus came to bring this program about ( Heb. 9:15; 10:4-10; Jn.3:16 ).

God determined two things:
1. To give up His Son to die for sinners (Rom. 5:8 ).
2. To give up sinners to their own will, so that, even while they resisted His will they would fulfill it by crucifying the one who was destined to save all who believe ( Acts 2:22-24; 3:13-26; 4:10, 26-30; Jn. 3:16; Rev. 22:17 ).

"a man that needth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth " ( 2 Tim. 2:15 ).
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
Lot of writing there quoting Paul. Do you know of Paul's account of his conversion? What part incorporates



with his account?
Maybe he did not resist???

A few things are happening in these two examples that are consistent in other places of the Bible.

Example 1: During Paul`s conversion he asked "Lord what shall I do"

1. God reveals
2. Pricked in the heart
3. Not my will, but thine
3. What shall we do


Example 2: Stephen said this - ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost.......and which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just one; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers. Who have received the law by disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

1. God revealed (they were shown "of the coming" of the Just one)
2. They were pricked in the heart
2. Almost persuaded
4. Resisted
 

Israel

Senior Member
It is hard to kick against the goads.
 
Maybe he did not resist???

A few things are happening in these two examples that are consistent in other places of the Bible.

Example 1: During Paul`s conversion he asked "Lord what shall I do"

1. God reveals
2. Pricked in the heart
3. Not my will, but thine
3. What shall we do


Example 2: Stephen said this - ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost.......and which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just one; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers. Who have received the law by disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

1. God revealed (they were shown "of the coming" of the Just one)
2. They were pricked in the heart
2. Almost persuaded
4. Resisted
One thing I don't understand and perhaps related it why is it so hard to get a Muslim or Hindu to get called, awakened, etc. by either man or God?
It's almost like God or man mostly call and awaken only the blind children or neighbors of their own nation. Why do Christian nations have more Christians? Why do most Christian parents have Christian children? Why do Elect parents have Elect children. Has God ever saved whole households in scripture?
Does God blind whole nations except a few?
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
One thing I don't understand and perhaps related it why is it so hard to get a Muslim or Hindu to get called, awakened, etc. by either man or God?
It's almost like God or man mostly call and awaken only the blind children or neighbors of their own nation. Why do Christian nations have more Christians? Why do most Christian parents have Christian children? Why do Elect parents have Elect children. Has God ever saved whole households in scripture?
Does God blind whole nations except a few?
Could it be generational curses? Where are the majority of the muslims located (or, where were they located before Obama and Biden :bounce:)

Seems they were located near where Jesus was rejected, and it seems there were Gentiles (non Jews) already that the Jews clashed with.

But, you are correct. In a Christian nation there should be more Christians. The reason we were founded was for freedom of religion and at that time the majority must have believed in the Christian God. Very few Christians will move to the Muslim nations.

Carnelius and his whole house were saved.

The reason it is so hard for Muslims / Hindus to get called because as scripture points to in many places, they must believe that Jesus was the Son of God. They are taught He was not. They are blinded by their unbelief. I am sure they wonder the same thing about the Christians - why is it so hard to convert them?

The bigger question is can God reach them - I would say yes. Will He reach the ones that He knows will not refuse Him? I would say yes.
 
Could it be generational curses? Where are the majority of the muslims located (or, where were they located before Obama and Biden :bounce:)

Seems they were located near where Jesus was rejected, and it seems there were Gentiles (non Jews) already that the Jews clashed with.

But, you are correct. In a Christian nation there should be more Christians. The reason we were founded was for freedom of religion and at that time the majority must have believed in the Christian God. Very few Christians will move to the Muslim nations.

Carnelius and his whole house were saved.

The reason it is so hard for Muslims / Hindus to get called because as scripture points to in many places, they must believe that Jesus was the Son of God. They are taught He was not. They are blinded by their unbelief. I am sure they wonder the same thing about the Christians - why is it so hard to convert them?

The bigger question is can God reach them - I would say yes. Will He reach the ones that He knows will not refuse Him? I would say yes.
I would think He would reach the ones who have their hearts pricked.
 
Could it be generational curses?
That's an interesting concept. How does a whole nation or a generation in a family work with the free will of those being cursed? Seems kind of unfair that God would curse a whole generation or blind a nation such as Israel for a certain time period. Eventually un-blinding that same nation or generation.
That would mean a whole lot of innocent people being blinded and never getting their hearts pricked during that time period.

I guess Household salvation is the opposite of a Generational curse. Not sure how to work those concepts into free will.
 
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Thread starter #12
Rom. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

For whom he did foreknow meaning
to know beforehand. Trans. knew before ( 2 Pet. 3:17 ); foreknew ( Rom. 8:29; 11:2 ); foreordain ( 1 Pet. 1:20; Rom. 11:1 ); and know ( Acts 26:5 ).

God's foreknowledge 1 Pet. 1:2 a perceiving beforehand. Only here and Acts 2:23. In both places it refers to God seeing ahead that He would have to send a Savior to redeem man from the fall. Rom. 8:29-30. No single individual is chosen, elected, foreknown, or predestined to be saved or lost without his personal choice and responsibility in the matter ( Jn. 3:16; 1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; Rev. 22:17 ).
It would be a cruel respect of persons and an-unjust regard for one and an unjust disregard for another and not divine justice for one to be chosen by God to be saved and another to be d-amned. God offers grace to all alike. His invitations, promises, provision, and warnings of punishment are general, All men are invited to choose life and are warned of eternal punishment if they do not do so. It is inconsistent with man's probation for God to choose and elect some to be saved and some to be lost.

He also did predestinate meaning
Foreordain. Trans. determine before Acts 4:28; ordain 1 Cor. 2:7; and predestinate Rom. 8:29, 30 ; Eph. 1:5-11. It is God's plan that He has foreknown and predestinated and not the individual conformity of free wills to the plan . He has called all men and all are free to accept or reject the call Jn. 3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; Rev. 22:17. All who do accept, He has foreknown and predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son that His Son might be the first-born among men V. 29.Those who reject the plan, He has foreknown to consigned to eternal He11 as an everlasting monument of His wrath on rebels Isa. 66:22-24; Rev. 14:9-11; Mt. 25:41, 46. This is the sum of foreknowledge and predestination.

to be conformed to the image of his Son meaning
only here and in Phil. 3:21 where the resurrected body will be made like His glorious body. This is what God has foreknown and predestinated for all who conform to the gospel.

that he might be the firstborn among many brethren Lk. 8:19; Col. 1:15.

" a workman that needth not to be ashamed, rightly, dividing the word of truth" ( 2 Tim. 2:15 ).
 
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Thread starter #14
“God foreknew by predestination those things which He was about to do, whence it was said, “He made those things that shall be”. Isaiah 45:11 ~ Augustine
God's omnipotence

Isa. 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel and his maker. Ask me of the things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel and his maker. Ask me of things to come concerning meaning

2 commands to Israel ( Isa. 45:11 )
1. Ask me to show you things to come concerning my sons.
2. command me concerning the work of my hands.
This literally means that men have the authority to pray in such faith that they can direct the Almighty to do for them those things which they want and need. God would rather do things for His people than to withhold from them. To command God is an expression of the highest relationship, friendship, and cooperation to the same end in life. It is a rare privilege to command Him, and if exercised property in fervent respectful petition there is nothing that will be impossible to the believer ( V. 11; Mt. 17:20, 21, 22; Mk. 9:23; 11:22-24; Jn. 14:12-15; 15:7, 16 ).

7 examples of commanding God.

1. Moses commanded frogs to die ( Ex. 8:13).
2. He commanded files to be removed ( Ex. 8:31 ).
3. He cause God to repent ( Ex. 32:12-14 ).
4. Joshua commanded the sun ( Josh. 10:12 ).
5. Elijah commanded fire from heaven ( 1 Ki. 18:36-38; 2 Ki. 1:10,12 ).
6. Jesus Christ commanded the winds and waves to obey, water to turn to wine ( Lk. 4:35; Jn. 2 ).
7. Apostles and others commanded men to be free from infirmity ( Acts 3:6; 5:16; 9:34, 40; 13:11; 14:10; 19:11-12 ).

my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. Meaning

Another proof of sonship and the new birth in the O.T. ( V. 11; Gal. 4:29 ).

"a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" ( 2 Tim. 2:15 ).
 

Israel

Senior Member
There are many things in Is 45 worth considering prior to the verses quoted above.

Reading from vs 1 and on through shows many things. May the Lord graciously open our ears and eyes.
 
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gemcgrew

Senior Member
God's omnipotence

Isa. 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel and his maker. Ask me of the things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel and his maker. Ask me of things to come concerning meaning

2 commands to Israel ( Isa. 45:11 )
1. Ask me to show you things to come concerning my sons.
2. command me concerning the work of my hands.
This literally means that men have the authority to pray in such faith that they can direct the Almighty to do for them those things which they want and need. God would rather do things for His people than to withhold from them. To command God is an expression of the highest relationship, friendship, and cooperation to the same end in life. It is a rare privilege to command Him, and if exercised property in fervent respectful petition there is nothing that will be impossible to the believer ( V. 11; Mt. 17:20, 21, 22; Mk. 9:23; 11:22-24; Jn. 14:12-15; 15:7, 16 ).

7 examples of commanding God.

1. Moses commanded frogs to die ( Ex. 8:13).
2. He commanded files to be removed ( Ex. 8:31 ).
3. He cause God to repent ( Ex. 32:12-14 ).
4. Joshua commanded the sun ( Josh. 10:12 ).
5. Elijah commanded fire from heaven ( 1 Ki. 18:36-38; 2 Ki. 1:10,12 ).
6. Jesus Christ commanded the winds and waves to obey, water to turn to wine ( Lk. 4:35; Jn. 2 ).
7. Apostles and others commanded men to be free from infirmity ( Acts 3:6; 5:16; 9:34, 40; 13:11; 14:10; 19:11-12 ).

my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. Meaning

Another proof of sonship and the new birth in the O.T. ( V. 11; Gal. 4:29 ).

"a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" ( 2 Tim. 2:15 ).
Categorical error.

"a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" ( 2 Tim. 2:15 ).
 
Starting back as far as you like.

Question:
9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth
Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
=======================================
Answer:
10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
=======================================
Question:
11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me [approximately half of English translations have "." and half "?"]
========================================
Answer:
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the Lord of hosts.
=========================================
14 Thus saith the Lord, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.

[Obviously, man is God. "sarcasm"]
>>Actually this passage is a foretelling of things to take place +/- 150 years later in the taking of Babylon by Cyrus (i.e. vs. 13, 'I have raised him up.." refers to Cyrus)<<

15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
 
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Thread starter #17
Ephesians
1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

Having predestinated us,
meaning foreordained Rom. 8:29 ). Here God has predestined all children of God to be adopted into His family, but who becomes a child of God is left up to each individual ( Jn. 3:15-20; Rev. 22:17; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9 ).

unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will.
Meaning adoption ( V. 5 Rom. 8:15, 23; 9:4; Gal. 4:5 ). God has adopted us by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to His pleasure and will, to the praise and glory of His grace, and has made us accepted in Christ ( V. 5).

"a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" ( 2 Tim. 2:15 ).
 

Israel

Senior Member
Could it be generational curses? Where are the majority of the muslims located (or, where were they located before Obama and Biden :bounce:)

Seems they were located near where Jesus was rejected, and it seems there were Gentiles (non Jews) already that the Jews clashed with.

But, you are correct. In a Christian nation there should be more Christians. The reason we were founded was for freedom of religion and at that time the majority must have believed in the Christian God. Very few Christians will move to the Muslim nations.

Carnelius and his whole house were saved.

The reason it is so hard for Muslims / Hindus to get called because as scripture points to in many places, they must believe that Jesus was the Son of God. They are taught He was not. They are blinded by their unbelief. I am sure they wonder the same thing about the Christians - why is it so hard to convert them?

The bigger question is can God reach them - I would say yes. Will He reach the ones that He knows will not refuse Him? I would say yes.
They are taught He was not.
When one begins to see the "why" of that one may begin to understand how that the whole of the world; religious, secular, political, philosophical, economical, psychological... rises as one yeasty mass in all opposition...precisely, and only to the truth that He is...the very Son of God. The world is all of reaction.

There is a separation necessary that no man can accomplish of, or for, himself.

A fish has little understanding of water while in it, thinking it is all there is.
Let him flop around a while on the banks where he cannot live unless life is given him, and he may begin to understand.

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
 
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Emphasized but UNDIVIDED

Ephesians
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
 

RegularJoe

Senior Member
IF God is all-knowing and He is all-powerful,
then, why would He not fully know how His entire Creation would unfold,
including, who would be 'the Elect?'
 
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