Romans 9, Children of the Promise?

[Artfuldodger]

Reading those older genealogy accounts from the Old Testament regarding Abraham, how do we reconcile that with Romans 9:6-9?
Romans 9:6-8
6It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
7Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”
8So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring.

I do understand that not all of Abraham's descendants are his children or lineage as some are through Ishmael and Keturah's kids. Then later through Isaac, God chose/elected Isaac.

I don't understand why all this had to happen if God eventually chose by other means other than genealogy. Did he switch from Genealogy to the other method of choosing after the Cross perhaps?

Maybe the genealogy method was just the way he chose as a path for Jesus and the other method was for how he chose for Salvation purposes.
I mean it could be two totally different things I'm looking at. One being the path God chose for Jesus to get to the earth and another path for His Children getting to Heaven.
One for the way Israel descendants through Abraham and another for His Children. Two completely different things maybe?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

Then why did Paul seem to have a certain concern for Israel?

Romans 9:4-5
4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory and the covenants; theirs the giving of the law, the temple worship, and the promises.
55Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen

Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

No matter how you view Christ as the seed of Abraham, Paul also saw some type of connection to the genealogy of Abraham which leads to the election of God's love based on said patriarchs.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

You make a great point and thus why I'm seeking answers to all the genealogy parts.

"8So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring."

If Jesus is the promise then the Children of that promise if the children of Jesus. Sort of Paul using a play on words I reckon.

If so the why in is Paul so concerned with Abraham's descendants in the form we call physical Israel in the previous verses in that same chapter?
4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory and the covenants; theirs the giving of the law, the temple worship, and the promises.…
Paul sees something in relation to those or he wouldn't have made such a big deal about it. Then right after those few verses on the singular Seed he reverts back to what he was preciously discussing concerning the genealogy part and God's election process within that lineage. Again, I understand God having mercy on whom he will have mercy, Election, etc.
I just don't quite have a grasp on the back and forthness of the genealogy and the general election parts concerning children, promises, etc.

 

[Artfuldodger]

7Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”

Again Paul is returning the conversation to Isaac. I mean if you back up to Abraham, and follow a genealogy diagram, not all in the other lines are through Isaac. Paul goes on to explain the whole lineage thing.

It's almost like two stories or thoughts of reason intertwined in a way that I haven't quite grasped yet. The geology story and the everybody else story as it pertains to the children of God. Maybe I'm not suppose to untangle them. I don't think Paul ever did.

Maybe asking another way, why did God use the election process and having mercy on whom he will have mercy for His genealogy plan to bring Christ to the Earth and then another election process and having mercy on whom he will have mercy for His plan to bring salvation to everyone else not of that lineage or genealogy?

Romans 11 really brings to home the genealogy parts.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Jesus may have been the Seed of the Promise but there was definitely a promise to some men as well. Promises that excluded others.

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

We do know that the blood of Jesus brought those that were excluded in to those promises.

14For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility…

 

[Artfuldodger]

Maybe God made two promises to Abraham, one was The Seed(Christ) and the other was a Nation? A nation with a promise(s). Those two do intermingle.
Perhaps Romans 9-11 explains how the two intermingled and brought in those excluded in Ephesians 2.

 

[gordon 2]

This might help some. Abraham and Sarah are to be the father and mother of many nations. Ishmael will be one nation.

Isaac would be many nations and Ishmael one nation.

 

[gordon 2]

So Isaac is a son due God's orchestration ( God said Abram and Sarai will be father and mother of many nations) while Ishmael is a son due to Abram's and Sarai's orchestration ( Abram and Sarai said they must be the parents of many nations due God's will for them).

Abram and Sarai are trying to fit into God's plan for them so that God is not a liar perhaps and God's plan does not need their fitting in cause he is not a liar. God's interventions are supernatural, and God acts supernaturally while Abram and Sarai understand that yet they know God that all they got to do is act naturally and they will be good to go... etc

It is somewhat like our foil of understanding via the religious spirit vs our understanding via the spiritual which is whole by itself. Or perhaps it is a fight between our reasoned God which issues from fear and love vs our spiritually discerned God which is our horn of plenty or love alone.

So within Israel itself there has always been a remnant, an elect or spiritual Israel--- a folk that don't bow the knee but remains first and foremost spiritually driven in outlook and acts. God is fitted into them supernaturally so they don't need no natural scheme to fit in. They're in the zone and batting 400 like is was breathing air.


"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit."

 

[Artfuldodger]

The way I interpret Paul's revelation of the mystery/secret is this. God needed a nation of some group to make a Covenant with. This to prove that it would not be kept by this Nation/group. I mean He had to choose some group to do this, he could have used China but God, through election chose Israel. His way fo bringing this forth was with genealogy.

This nation would have the promises of that covenant and would deliver the promise of the Seed. What better way to show a nation would need salvation from that Seed than to blind them or harden that very nation to make it happen? This is what Paul teaches in Romans 11. God will elect by grace and have mercy on whom he will have mercy.

God used this election and hardening to choose a Remnant from Israel and harden the rest. This allowed those that were without God and the promises of the Covenant to be grafted in. This was the mystery Paul was teaching.

I think Paul is saying that there is this one group that are heirs to the promise through Abraham's descendants yet we know that not all from Abraham are God's chosen children. Paul is also teaching that because of God's hardening and having mercy on whom he will have mercy, that God still has mercy on this group that he hardened. But for now they are hardened as part of his Grand Plan, which allows those others(Gentiles) to be gathered in. Those mentioned in Ephesians that were without the promises of the covenant.

Thus there is a two-fold intertwining of the genealogy and the other children. Some think or see it as God doing this to bring in his real or true children and not the Jews. Like it changed or replaced or has always been that purpose.
I don't see it that way although I do know that all of this has always been God's plan. I see it more as just God's plan of Election and mercy coming about exactly as God planned it. That being he chose Israel to bring the Seed knowing that Israel would fail as a nation due to His blinding to allow His salvation plan to go to the whole world. Since God did this it's not like His plan failed. What it did was bring in the rest of whom he had mercy on. It brought the others into the same group that he used to show that the covenant would not be kept and the same group that he brought in a Savior for their salvation.
I also believe that God will unblind Israel at some time in the future. I think that is what Paul is teaching in Romans 11.

 

[Artfuldodger]

The very idea that God could choose the people of Israel over all the others offends sensibilities and can be hard to swallow. Both Jew and Gentile alike have been known to puzzle at this apparent favouritism. How are to we believe that God is just and loves everyone, but at the same time “sets his affection” on one people group in particular?

I guess God chose them by grace and not works. I can't see God using his foreknowledge as others believe in why he chose Israel.

 

[Artfuldodger]

God’s election of Israel was an honor and privilege, but it also carries a heavy responsibility.
“You only have I chosen of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your sins.” (Amos 3:1-2)

Psalm 147 declares:
“He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. He has done this for no other nation.”

Sometimes I've thought Israel's place in God's plan was more of a curse than a blessing.

Maybe it was the diversity of the land that God needed? To show how one nation or even individuals must help and share. Even to the point of eventually having to share their own God.
Therefore Israel had to learn to share what they had and to not discriminate against the various types of peoples.

The Cross removed that dividing wall of hostility.

Imagine if you were Paul, elected by God to carry that sharing message of salvation to the Gentiles? Paul also had to teach that sharing message to the Jews.
Paul had been set apart from birth and called by God’s grace so that he might “preach [Christ] among the Gentiles”