Sincere Q on when a Believer is to ask 'Forgiveness.'

[gordon 2]

Then.. Adams sin could not possibly have resulted in physical death could it? Since being in Christ there is no condemnation of that original sin.
The condemnation being death.. If it were physical death then Paul would still be with us, wouldn't he?

Nope. That's not how I read it. The world is not cleansed of the effect of the curse and our bodies are still part of it...-- but spiritually we are back to one-on-one communion with God ---as we are freed from the curse "of being the slaves of sin due original sin" spiritually.

When Jesus returns the whole kit and kaboodle will be rewired... Our vine is still growing--growning... until that great day comes.

Your so funny my brother.

 

[hobbs27]

Nope. That's not how I read it. The world is not cleansed of the effect of the curse our bodies are still part of it...-- but spiritually we are back to one-on-one communion with God ---as we are freed from the curse spiritually.

When Jesus returns the whole kit and kaboodle will be rewired... Our vine is still growing--growning...

Your so funny my brother.

2 And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death.

I'll just leave this here with no questions... To those that say I'm crazy... Read it. Good night bros.

 

[gordon 2]

2 And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death.

I'll just leave this here with no questions... To those that say I'm crazy... Read it. Good night bros.

It( the power) has freed you from it(sin), but you can still entertain it (sin). Freedom has its responsibilities that some former prisoners find overwhelming?

I don't think your crazy at all. Your just one of those well balanced geniuses of our generation. Or should that be the other way around... Good night... I guess there will be no negotiating a deal tonight.

1 John 4-10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

 

[Artfuldodger]

1 John 4-10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

In a nutshell, 1 John 4-10 is the deal.

Here in Romans 11:5-6 is Paul explaining the deal;

"In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace."

 

[matt79brown]

If it's bothering you, then I'd take it to the Lord. I'd also study 1st John chapters 1&2. It helped me on this subject.

 

[gordon 2]

In a nutshell, 1 John 4-10 is the deal.

Here in Romans 11:5-6 is Paul explaining the deal;

"In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace."

Right. Which is why spiritually due grace we are not slaves to sin and when we do stumble and sin we have means within the body of Christ and can confess them our sins and repent as per scripture :



And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail.

James 5:16

 

[Artfuldodger]

It( the power) has freed you from it(sin), but you can still entertain it (sin). Freedom has its responsibilities that some former prisoners find overwhelming?

What if we say that (the Power) has freed us from the wages of sin? It has freed us from the yoke of sin. The power of sin. The results of sin. The effects of sin. The consequences of sin.

We, still being flesh, still sin. We, not only entertain sin, we perform it. Regardless of how reformed I am as a former prisoner. I can't escape it. It's in my flesh.

Therefore even though (the Power) has payed the price and wiped my slate clean, I still ask; please forgive me of my sins as I forgive those who sin against me.

Asking God to forgive me is easy. Me forgiving others, not so easy.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Right. Which is why spiritually due grace we are not slaves to sin and when we do stumble and sin we have means within the body of Christ and can confess them our sins and repent as per scripture :

And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail.

James 5:16

I think I understand now. 1 John 4:10 comes with the stipulation in James 5:16.

I'm gonna have to get with those Elders on an hourly basis. Pray for me to reach the Elders to pray for my hourly sins before I pass in the physical sense.

I've never doubted the power of the Power. Now I see it includes the power of the Elders as well. Salvation based on man. I will consider it. Put my faith in man. Sure why not. If that is what James is saying then, man it is.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Right. Which is why spiritually due grace we are not slaves to sin and when we do stumble and sin we have means within the body of Christ and can confess them our sins and repent as per scripture :

And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail.
James 5:16

Concerning James, is the faith of the Elders and the prayers of the Elders the only way to renewed salvation caused by the effects of ones hourly sins?
The prayer offered in faith from the Elders will restore the one who is sick. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.

What about the actions, faith, prayers, etc. of the actual individual Christian sinner? Do they count for anything?
What is the role of the individual in this atonement process? He has to at least tell the Elders and the others he is sick. That takes some faith on his own. He has to confess his own sins in order to be healed. In order to receive the faith of the Elders to restore his lost salvation through prayer.

Disregarding James, can this same person regain his lost salvation by asking God directly to restore his salvation by confessing his sins directly to Him?

 

[gordon 2]

I think I understand now. 1 John 4:10 comes with the stipulation in James 5:16.

I'm gonna have to get with those Elders on an hourly basis. Pray for me to reach the Elders to pray for my hourly sins before I pass in the physical sense.

I've never doubted the power of the Power. Now I see it includes the power of the Elders as well. Salvation based on man. I will consider it. Put my faith in man. Sure why not. If that is what James is saying then, man it is.

I don't know how you come up with "faith in man"... or perhaps I do.... as it might seem that way. As for me I do consider with great importance the Holy Spirit in man....which is why we are brothers and friends...

 

[hobbs27]

It( the power) has freed you from it(sin), but you can still entertain it (sin). Freedom has its responsibilities that some former prisoners find overwhelming?

I don't think your crazy at all. Your just one of those well balanced geniuses of our generation. Or should that be the other way around... Good night... I guess there will be no negotiating a deal tonight.

1 John 4-10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

( The power) has freed us from ( The power)
of sin which leads to death. Since we have been freed from the power of sin which leads to death and there is no more condemnation for those in Christ... And the sin in context is original sin... Then physical death could have never been the death in the law of sin and death, or Christians from that first century to today would still be physically living.

Adam died in the day ( that day) he took of the fruit. He did not begin dying, he died that day.
By being cast out of the presence of God and losing his standing as a Son and becoming a servant..... IE No inheritance to his off spring as servants.

It took Christ.. God's only begotten Son, to die as a sacrifice to satisfy the law which was in place because of sin and death, to fix what Adam broke.

In Spirit we become Sons of God and that first century group became co-heirs of the inheritance.. Eternal life. IE... No more condemnation of sin... IE death.

The text clearly screams this to me. Where is it saying otherwise? Thanks

 

[gordon 2]

Concerning James, is the faith of the Elders and the prayers of the Elders the only way to renewed salvation caused by the effects of ones hourly sins?
The prayer offered in faith from the Elders will restore the one who is sick. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.

What about the actions, faith, prayers, etc. of the actual individual Christian sinner? Do they count for anything?
What is the role of the individual in this atonement process? He has to at least tell the Elders and the others he is sick. That takes some faith on his own. He has to confess his own sins in order to be healed. In order to receive the faith of the Elders to restore his lost salvation through prayer.

Disregarding James, can this same person regain his lost salvation by asking God directly to restore his salvation by confessing his sins directly to Him?

Why do you ask me...? What does scripture say? Is it possible to loose one's salvation?

 

[j_seph]

i have an authentic question as a true Believer
(for clarity/confirmation - Some time years ago i 100% accepted Christ thru the Holy Spirit as my only Salvation while acknowledging Him as the only Son of God)
about Forgiveness.
My concern with asking the below Q is that it might stir up some heated discussion ... in which case i respectfully request that it be immediately deleted?
i am posting this Q fully in the context of Ronnie T's sticky-fied post about "Reminder Concerning this Forum" he states, "It is better to be ignorant and teachable than arrogant and enlightened."
Yup... and i will be less ignorant cause i am teachable ... the very reason for placing this Q before y'all.
When i accepted Christ, i accepted that He died for all my sins .... past, present and future, as well as, sins of which i was, am & will be aware, along with sins past, present and future that of which i have had/have/will have no awareness, at least as long as i am kicking around as the silly mortal that i am.
So .... my Q is when i become aware of something sinful that i have done at this time (having already accepted that Christ died for ALL my sins) then how come i am supposed to ask Him for forgiveness all over again.
i do see that i am to be thankful for Him having taken on my stupid sin + VERY much want to thank Him for having already paid for that very sin following His crucifixion; however, i can not find anywhere in The Bible that it tells me to ask for forgiveness a second time.
Even 'The Lord's Prayer' was instruction to the Apostles before He had taken on the sins of the Apostles and thus it just makes sense that one should have asked for forgiveness prior to His crucifixion.
- Many thanks y'all.

Suggest you look into confessing sins and repentance. If your child screws up you do not kick him out of the family, you still love him however they have to confess what they did or there are repercussions and apologize. To myself by asking for forgiveness I am humbling myself to admit that I have sinned, apologizing for it by asking that he forgive me. What right do I have if I sin to not seek and ask forgiveness to the one who saved my soul? It also comes with fearing the Lord. Just because we are forgiven does not mean we will not have a punishment for our sin. Maybe the confessing and asking forgiveness will save us from punishment or make it just a little less.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Why do you ask me...? What does scripture say? Is it possible to loose one's salvation?

Let's just say one is sick(spiritually) and needs to talk to God. Can he confess directly to God through prayer for "healing?"
I understand that God gives Church people his Spirit and that is one way God heals through man. I don't discount that God works through or uses man. The Elders most definitely have the Spirit. It is the Spirit that heals.

Galatians 3:5
So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

 

[RegularJoe]

There was a time my heart was in turmoil over the apparent contradiction* between Paul and James. I was to the point of giving up on Paul as being enlightened.
I eventually worked my way through it.

Yup, Art, you offer a really worthy point.
And, for me, over the years, i have found a number of matters (i.e./e.g., my OP that i do not have to resolve to know i am Saved; however, where i am afforded an opportunity (this great Forum) to look into 'theology' & maybe gain a little further mortal comprehension, of course, then perhaps i can be a little stronger in my faith .... more importantly, that added strength moves me to maybe be a little better servant of Him < the end goal.
Where am i going with this ?
Here is (finally :- ) my point ...
With full expectation that 'on this side' there is gonna be plenty that i am simply never mortally going to understand, and when i clearly run into not seemingly being able to understand, which includes *reconciling on my own certain parts of The Book, i look to and am educated by Proverbs 3:5 ... wherein i am instructed (my paraphrase :- ) to remember to at some point stop, lean not on my understanding, but do lean on my trusting in The Lord with allllll my heart. < Taking this to prayer, and hopefully then practice, frees me to move along .

 

[GeorgiaBob]

The Greek word, translated to English in the New Testament as, "sin" literally means, "to miss the mark" - as in an archer missing the bullseye in a competition. We sin, whenever we fall short of God's plan for us, whenever we "miss" having a perfect relationship with God. That's a pretty high standard, but that high standard is what God wants for us. In today's world, it is pretty clearly IMPOSSIBLE to maintain that standard, so all of us remain sinners, sinners saved by Grace, but sinners nevertheless!

Salvation through forgiveness is a one time, one size fits all, event - AND - it is a lifetime of work. BOTH ARE TRUE. So if (WHEN) you sin again, it is not God who demands repeated appeals for forgiveness, it is ourselves - we who failed to keep our promise to God - who demand we confess our sins to God and seek to make it right.

Perhaps even more important than asking God to forgive you again, is to ask the people whom you have sinned against, or harmed by your sin, to forgive you. And just as valuable, to try and make restitution to all who were impacted by your sin. And the opposite side of the coin is also a part of your Christian journey, to forgive those who have sinned against you.

If all of this seems complicated, convoluted, overly detailed. There is a short version. Accept Jesus as Savior, live by his example, do all the good you can, try to correct your mistakes and forgive anyone you does you harm.

So, YES, even though you are saved by Grace and ALL of your sins are forgiven, go back to God in prayer, ask forgiveness for your new sins and seek God's guidance in moving forward.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Yup, Art, you offer a really worthy point.
And, for me, over the years, i have found a number of matters (i.e./e.g., my OP that i do not have to resolve to know i am Saved; however, where i am afforded an opportunity (this great Forum) to look into 'theology' & maybe gain a little further mortal comprehension, of course, then perhaps i can be a little stronger in my faith .... more importantly, that added strength moves me to maybe be a little better servant of Him < the end goal.
Where am i going with this ?
Here is (finally :- ) my point ...
With full expectation that 'on this side' there is gonna be plenty that i am simply never mortally going to understand, and when i clearly run into not seemingly being able to understand, which includes *reconciling on my own certain parts of The Book, i look to and am educated by Proverbs 3:5 ... wherein i am instructed (my paraphrase :- ) to remember to at some point stop, lean not on my understanding, but do lean on my trusting in The Lord with allllll my heart. < Taking this to prayer, and hopefully then practice, frees me to move along .

I think that after one has resolved that he is saved, he then starts on a quest to find out what saved him. Sure he receives enough faith and knowledge to receive salvation. Beyond that he probably hasn't contemplated the deeper parts of the whole picture. In ones love after receiving the gift, he tries to learn how to please the one who gave him his salvation.

Hopefully God understands that we are only men and doesn't hold it against us if we learn something the wrong way.

 

[RegularJoe]

Suggest you look into confessing sins and repentance*. If your child screws up you do not kick him out of the family, you still love him however they have to confess what they did or there are repercussions and apologize.
To myself by asking for forgiveness** I am humbling myself to admit that I have sinned, apologizing for it by asking that he forgive me. What right do I have if I sin to not seek and ask forgiveness to the one who saved my soul? It also comes with fearing the Lord. Just because we are forgiven does not mean we will not have a punishment for our sin. Maybe the confessing and asking forgiveness will save us from punishment or make it just a little less.***

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.****

Yes, J_seph, you are certainly right; and, in doing so * i have developed the understanding to the distinct differences between:
1. Asking for forgiveness (not to mention praying/begging! for related awareness of alllll my sins ... omission and comission as well as known by me and unknown by me :- );
2. Confessing sins - which serves to remind me on how beyond mortal comprehension thankful i am to be for Him having taken on all my sins; &
3. Being repentant.

The Q which arises by appealing to Him a second time (consistent with The Bible i accepted His salvation from all my sins at the time i was accepted Him as my only means of salvation) for **forgiveness ...
did i not accept His Promise in the first place as true that all my sins were forgiven?
i DO want to know of all my sins cause it thereby enables me to confess my awareness, the actual sin itself (grievously of course!) + my refreshened (sp?) awareness of His having taken on that specific sin .... as well as all the others ... which in turn grows my thankfulness for Him having unconditionally & marvelously done so.

Yup, certainly a wonderful *** point that is directly related to the proportionality of the dispensing of riches we are told to expect in Heaven (the concept here usually advanced, as i anticipate you have probably heard/read as well :- ), is that all of our glasses are full .... we probably just all have different size glasses.

And, in 1st John 1:9 **** my personal interpretation (not suggesting it should be yours, or that of others :- ) is that at the time i accepted Christ as my only means of salvation of all my sins (i confessed all my sins ... overt, convert + those those of which i will and will not as a mortal ever be even aware no matter how much i may wish to be aware) AND consistent with His promise, therein & throughout The Bible, He right then and there forgave me ... in my humble view;
if He hadn't i never be able to get into Heaven cause i HAVE to be sinless in the eyes of God to be accepted and it is only thru Christ's salvation that i can be so .... and God & Christ & The Holy Spirit, being omniscient, are the only 'entities' that KNOW of all the sins of which i will never mortally know. Thus if i do not know of the sins, and if i must confess again to be saved from them, i will never be saved of them cause i do not know of them for which to ask forgiveness again < hence i shall never get to Heaven.

 

[hobbs27]

In the old covenant, man was separated from God through sin. God gave them the law to magnify or expose their sin, while in His absence.

In the New Covenant, Jesus has given us grace. His blood covers our sin that we may now be in God's presence. In God's presence we don't need a law of letters.. He's there with us, to smack us up side the head if need be.... Or to hold and comfort us. Your sin is covered with your walk in Christ. You don't need to confess to man, you don't need to be re-saved..You just need to work out your salvation.

 

[formula1]

re:

Lots of good stuff on this topic. Here are a few thoughts that came to me.

2 Cor 13
5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Testing that leads to repentance (a turning away) is healthy for a believer!

Colossians 3:3
For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Galatians 2
19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Most believers will spend a lifetime on this truth, trying to figure out that we are already dead!

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

The door is locked tight but believers have full access!

The very fact that a believer is convicted of sin shows that the Holy Spirit is working in you. Learn to plug into His power to overcome it! As long as you have your flesh man you will always be in this war but victory is already yours! Fight the fight! Overcome!

God Bless!