Sincere Q on when a Believer is to ask 'Forgiveness.'

gordon 2

Senior Member
Lots of good stuff on this topic. Here are a few thoughts that came to me.

2 Cor 13
5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Testing that leads to repentance (a turning away) is healthy for a believer!

Colossians 3:3
For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Galatians 2
19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Most believers will spend a lifetime on this truth, trying to figure out that we are already dead!

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

The door is locked tight but believers have full access!

The very fact that a believer is convicted of sin shows that the Holy Spirit is working in you. Learn to plug into His power to overcome it! As long as you have your flesh man you will always be in this war but victory is already yours! Fight the fight! Overcome!

God Bless!
And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.+++




Re: Regards faith and the definition of faith.

I had never looked at faith this way+++ ( from Galatians 2-19 above) that the traditional definition of faith ( trust in things hoped for) was as to the flesh and perhaps not as to the Spirit.

In the flesh we are still not made whole but in the Spirit we are " blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places"! Ephesians 1-3 above.

So our traditional and simple definition of faith is from and for our flesh nature. Which might explain why I always felt that faith was much more than its simple definition.

Faith risks a change of form or nature in a person's makeup after a person's spiritual nature is changed by the grace of God through Jesus Savior which usually leaves a person without doubt that the Holy Spirit is present and active in their lives.

Or, simply for many from a witness of God's intimate presence in their lives, or more simply expressed (I hope) for some born again experience in the life of a believer that there is NOT A DOUBT they are re-wired spiritually to a one on one relationship with God and to the body of Christ now present to the world as His church.

" Or as in my case that the " Kingdom of our Lord is more perceptible as a solid foundation than anything else said to be of solid foundation-period." And this is part of my faith, not a faith as a persuasion, not faith as something hoped for, but a faith in relationship that is my sure witness from and of the many "spiritual blessings in the heavenly places" Ephesians 1-3.

???? So does faith have more than one or two definitions? By God's grace how is faith built up and is it transformed in the life of a believer?

Maybe I should start a new thread... :) if all the eyes and tees are not crossed yet with the topic of this one...?
 
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formula1

Daily Bible Verse Organizer
Gordon:

I don't know if there are multiple definitions of faith, but please consider these scriptures as bookmarks on faith in that they and everything between them are paramount.

Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation.

Hebrews 12
1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

In all the examples in between, man chose God who they could not see with flesh eyes over what/who they could touch and experience. They had determined that what they could not see was more genuine, more real. Man cannot make that leap without Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

If I could give an alternate definition of faith, it would be this, that faith is determined in man by the One he looks to.

So, look to "Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith"!

God has granted me an wonderful life. I've had tough experiences, great ones and everything in between and I'm sure there are more of both to come. I carry a reminder with me everyday, a reminder for me to 'Look to Jesus'. It's nothing special but if I am in need, it helps me to focus on who I need. I'll share a picture of it with you.

May God bless you immensely!
 

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Spineyman

Senior Member
Gordon:

I don't know if there are multiple definitions of faith, but please consider these scriptures as bookmarks on faith in that they and everything between them are paramount.

Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation.

Hebrews 12
1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

In all the examples in between, man chose God who they could not see with flesh eyes over what/who they could touch and experience. They had determined that what they could not see was more genuine, more real. Man cannot make that leap without Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

If I could give an alternate definition of faith, it would be this, that faith is determined in man by the One he looks to.

So, look to "Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith"!

God has granted me an wonderful life. I've had tough experiences, great ones and everything in between and I'm sure there are more of both to come. I carry a reminder with me everyday, a reminder for me to 'Look to Jesus'. It's nothing special but if I am in need, it helps me to focus on who I need. I'll share a picture of it with you.

May God bless you immensely!
Here is the way I see it. It is not our faith, but the object of our faith. Like may pastor says. Strong faith in a weak plank will land you in the river, but weak faith in a strong plank will get you across the river. Therefore it is not our faith but Jesus who is the object of our faith. Like you referenced earlier in Hebrews faith chapter. They believed God, so it was reckoned to them as righteousness.
 

formula1

Daily Bible Verse Organizer
Here is the way I see it. It is not our faith, but the object of our faith. Like may pastor says. Strong faith in a weak plank will land you in the river, but weak faith in a strong plank will get you across the river. Therefore it is not our faith but Jesus who is the object of our faith. Like you referenced earlier in Hebrews faith chapter. They believed God, so it was reckoned to them as righteousness.
Yes, looking to Christ!

Faith in Christ with no plank and one can walk on water, but seeing the waves instead will cause you to sink. I read that somewhere!!!
 

j_seph

Senior Member
Hebrews 10 26-27
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
 
Hebrews 10 26-27
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
I always wondered about the difference from willful sin vs accidental sin. It is after one receives the "knowledge of the truth."
Would the drunkard's sin of over drinking be considered deliberate even if he has an addiction? Couldn't he still ask for forgiveness?

If I have lust in my heart, is it wilful? What if I cheat on my income tax? I know that is wilful. Can I then ask for forgiveness?
Did my "Sacrifice" really abandon me?

“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

Maybe in Hebrews it has something to do with acceptable sacrifice for sin in the Levitical system. I don't know, good question. Maybe?

sacrifice vs "The Sacrifice"
 

j_seph

Senior Member
Bible tells us not to lust, so yes I would say that is wilful. We know not to but we do. Repent and ask forgiveness.

Guess to put into carnal terms, if I make my wife mad she is going to forgive me because she loves me however the right thing to do is for me to ask her to forgive me. I was wrong, I made a mistake and I need her forgiveness so I would ask her to forgive me. By asking her she then knows I admit to my wrongs and I do feel bad about it. If I didn't, even though she forgave me that left a stumbling block between us.

Is your God not powerful enough to overcome the drunkards addiction? He knows it is wrong so yes that is willful IMO.

James 4:2-3 2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. 3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

Thought it was neat that Lust comes into the scripture here. The drunkard has not sobriety because he ask not, he may ask amiss.
My bible tells me in
Philippians 4:13
13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me

If I am sincere in my heart to have my addiction removed, I believe the Lord will fill and replace that addiction with his word and his spirit that there will be no room for the addiction.

Here is another take on forgiveness I read
"The answer is that divine forgiveness has two aspects. One is the judicial forgiveness God grants as Judge. It's the forgiveness God purchased for you by Christ's atonement for your sin. That kind of forgiveness frees you from any threat of eternal condemnation. It is the forgiveness of justification. Such pardon is immediately complete-you'll never need to seek it again.

The other is a parental forgiveness God grants as your Father. He is grieved when His children sin. The forgiveness of justification takes care of judicial guilt, but it does not nullify His fatherly displeasure over your sin. He chastens those whom He loves, for their good (Heb. 12:5-11)."
Hebrews 12:5-11

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Look at David as he testified
Psalm 32
1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.

4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.

5 I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

6 For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.

7 Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.

8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.

9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.

10 Many sorrows shall be to the wicked: but he that trusteth in the Lord, mercy shall compass him about.

11 Be glad in the Lord, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart.
 
Thread starter #48
There is a clear difference between:
1. Asking for forgiveness for a sin.
and
2. Confessing a sin.
 

Israel

Senior Member
There is a clear difference between:
1. Asking for forgiveness for a sin.
and
2. Confessing a sin.
Are you persuaded that in one case only the fruit is identified, but that in another its root is sought to find its source?
 
Thread starter #50
Israel,

Pls forgive me if I am not fully understanding your question.
Let me offer this in reply...

Your phrase "the fruit is identified" would be, for me, having an awareness of a sin and acknowledging to Him (aka confessing*) that I know of it and recognize it as sinful.

Your phrase "root is sought" would be forgiveness requested?????

Here are my views of the degrees of definitive differences (which I am more than willing & interested in altering upon hearing the thoughts of yours and others given that we can all find such support within Scripture : ) ....

Awareness of sin (which I certainly want!), leads to
*Confession of sin, leads to
Added appreciation for Jesus having died for all (known / unknown, past / present / future, omission / co-misssion), leads to
Thanking God over and over and over again for already having Saved me from this sin, leads to
Motivation to no longer sin as such, leads to
Repentance whereby I take action to try to never re-commit the same sin.

My original post question is about ....
I see no where in this above process where I am instructed by God in The Bible to request "Forgiveness" after having Him having granting me "Forgiveness" at the instant I accepted His only Son Jesus as my Savior.... for all my sins.

Maybe I am wrong ?????????

Thank you Israel ~ Joe.
 
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Madman

Senior Member
I see no where in this above process where I am instructed by God in The Bible to request "Forgiveness" after having Him having granting me "Forgiveness" at the instant I accepted His only Son Jesus as my Savior.... for all my sins.
Joe,

Might I offer one verse?

Matthew 6:
9 ‘Pray then in this way:

Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13 And do not bring us to the time of trial,
but rescue us from the evil one.
14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I believe Holy Scripture is ripe with the idea that we should see our sins, acknowledge or confess our sins, accept forgiveness of those sins, and progress from "perfection to perfection".
 
Thread starter #52
Thanks Mad.
Addressed that in my Original Post (last paragraph, i.e.) ...
He was teaching the Disciples what to do
a day or so before He had taken on the sins of Believers,
hence, asking for forgiveness at that point made sense.
Is there other Scripture you'd suggest I consider?
Please help me with this .... I can not find it.
I see plenty for confessing and repenting but not for requesting forgiveness and He forgives us upon our accepting His promise that if we accept His Son as our Savior then all of our sins at that instant are forgiven
(btw, otherwise we would never likely be accepted into Heaven cause of any sins we did not know of and/or failed to request between the time of the sin and our mortal death for which we failed to ask for and receive forgiveness ... which is some of the basis for some Chrisitian groups to subscribe to purgatory - so those sins for which forgiveness was not requested may be purged?).
Many thx,
Joe.
Might I offer one verse?
Matthew 6:
12 And forgive us our debts,
 

Madman

Senior Member
Thanks Mad.
Addressed that in my Original Post (last paragraph, i.e.) ...
He was teaching the Disciples what to do
a day or so before He had taken on the sins of Believers,
hence, asking for forgiveness at that point made sense.
OK. Let's say that is so, I am not convinced but...................


Is there other Scripture you'd suggest I consider?
Please help me with this .... I can not find it.
I see plenty for confessing and repenting but not for requesting forgiveness and He forgives us upon our accepting His promise that if we accept His Son as our Savior then all of our sins at that instant are forgiven
I am not sure I agree with this, and I know the ancient Church has never taught it. Are we "picking nits" by saying that we should confess, and repent, but not ask for forgiveness? We see in Hebrews 10: 26,27 that the idea of eternal security and that all future sins have already been forgiven and not be held against us may not jive.

I don't see the Biblical evidence for all sins past, present, and future, being forgiven.

We do know that Christ gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins, the implication being the need to confess and ask for forgiveness.

(btw, otherwise we would never likely be accepted into Heaven cause of any sins we did not know of and/or failed to request between the time of the sin and our mortal death for which we failed to ask for and receive forgiveness ... which is some of the basis for some Chrisitian groups to subscribe to purgatory - so those sins for which forgiveness was not requested may be purged?).
Many thx,
Joe.
Joe,
I believe this is the real problem you see and the reason for your question, unless sins, all past, present, and future are forgiven, we are all doomed, or maybe we are not. There is an answer, a Biblical answer for this dilemma.
 
Thread starter #54
Joe,
I believe this is the real problem you see and the reason for your question, unless sins, all past, present, and future are forgiven, we are all doomed, or maybe we are not. There is an answer, a Biblical answer for this dilemma.
Double M,
I think you are correct (i.e., what you defined above as 'the real problem') which, to me, is how come Scripture makes theological sense that all sins are forgiven at the instant one accepts Jesus as Savior (not partial Savior).
MM, I am not saying : ) that Scripture has to make sense ... nope .... only commenting that it does 'fit.'
You also commented above that 'there is a Biblical answer?' What is that answer?
Don't leave me hanging Brother : )))))).
Another observation you presented was 'are we picking nits?'
For me, Sir, it is not nits.
It actually is most important to me cause it fundamentally has to do with:
1. Did Jesus die for all my sins or not.
2. Did God promise that Jesus died for all my sins unconditionally (other than my accepting the given 100% salvation thru Jesus) or not.
3. If after accepting Jesus do I need to be sure I have asked for forgiveness for any given additional sin before I mortally die or I do not get into Heaven or not.
 

Madman

Senior Member
Double M,
I think you are correct (i.e., what you defined above as 'the real problem') which, to me, is how come Scripture makes theological sense that all sins are forgiven at the instant one accepts Jesus as Savior (not partial Savior).
MM, I am not saying : ) that Scripture has to make sense ... nope .... only commenting that it does 'fit.'
You also commented above that 'there is a Biblical answer?' What is that answer?
Don't leave me hanging Brother : )))))).
Another observation you presented was 'are we picking nits?'
For me, Sir, it is not nits.
It actually is most important to me cause it fundamentally has to do with:
1. Did Jesus die for all my sins or not.
2. Did God promise that Jesus died for all my sins unconditionally (other than my accepting the given 100% salvation thru Jesus) or not.
3. If after accepting Jesus do I need to be sure I have asked for forgiveness for any given additional sin before I mortally die or I do not get into Heaven or not.
I didn’t mean to demean the question with “nits”.
salvation is the utmost importance.

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Now it gets deeper and more theological.

I promised my wife I would give her my undivided attention this weekend, even though I will look in every now and then.

Please look into 2 topics,
1) mortal vs. Venial sin
2) purgatory

I have no intention of trying to make you “believe” what I believe. I will simply ask that you see where the Church gets these beliefs.

I need to go. Making Shrimp etouffee for my wife. It is Lent, no flesh meat on Friday. By choice, not God’s command.
God’s peace.
 
Thread starter #56
3) Now it gets deeper and more theological.
Please look into 2 topics,
1) mortal vs. Venial sin
2) purgatory
I have no intention of trying to make you “believe” what I believe. I will simply ask that you see where the Church gets these beliefs.
God’s peace.
Double M,
Am hoping your Friday night breakin' bread was great :)
Yeah, nor am I trying to move your thinking to mine, as I think you are already aware, as well.
My guess is that your items "1) & 2)," above are in your Christian Bible, while not being in my Christian Bible ... my rendition of Christianity is what is typically referred to as "Reformed Protestant." Perhaps other readers who are of my "ilk" : ) can help me with my Original Post Question as per my Bible...
what I am saying is that I know of no mention of either "1) or 2)" in the Protestant Bible.

While recognizing that you are not Roman Catholic, I have found these topics in the Roman Catholic Catechism and there in studied them, specifically, in detail.

Regarding which Bible I subscribe to is, of course, outside this thread.
I will add that I, personally, do adhere to the Protestant Bible after having spent years arriving at that Bible version being, for me, the correct conclusion.
 

Madman

Senior Member
Double M,
Am hoping your Friday night breakin' bread was great :)
Yeah, nor am I trying to move your thinking to mine, as I think you are already aware, as well.
My guess is that your items "1) & 2)," above are in your Christian Bible, while not being in my Christian Bible ... my rendition of Christianity is what is typically referred to as "Reformed Protestant." Perhaps other readers who are of my "ilk" : ) can help me with my Original Post Question as per my Bible...
what I am saying is that I know of no mention of either "1) or 2)" in the Protestant Bible.

While recognizing that you are not Roman Catholic, I have found these topics in the Roman Catholic Catechism and there in studied them, specifically, in detail.

Regarding which Bible I subscribe to is, of course, outside this thread.
I will add that I, personally, do adhere to the Protestant Bible after having spent years arriving at that Bible version being, for me, the correct conclusion.
Dinner was GREAT! Thank you! We will have this discussion out of “your” Bible version, which is probably the same as mine. The Apocrypha, while originally in most early Bible versions, my group does not view as inspired, but still worthy of reading and teaching.

Good evening.
 

Israel

Senior Member
Israel,

Pls forgive me if I am not fully understanding your question.
Let me offer this in reply...

Your phrase "the fruit is identified" would be, for me, having an awareness of a sin and acknowledging to Him (aka confessing*) that I know of it and recognize it as sinful.

Your phrase "root is sought" would be forgiveness requested?????

Here are my views of the degrees of definitive differences (which I am more than willing & interested in altering upon hearing the thoughts of yours and others given that we can all find such support within Scripture : ) ....

Awareness of sin (which I certainly want!), leads to
*Confession of sin, leads to
Added appreciation for Jesus having died for all (known / unknown, past / present / future, omission / co-misssion), leads to
Thanking God over and over and over again for already having Saved me from this sin, leads to
Motivation to no longer sin as such, leads to
Repentance whereby I take action to try to never re-commit the same sin.

My original post question is about ....
I see no where in this above process where I am instructed by God in The Bible to request "Forgiveness" after having Him having granting me "Forgiveness" at the instant I accepted His only Son Jesus as my Savior.... for all my sins.

Maybe I am wrong ?????????

Thank you Israel ~ Joe.
The matter of right or wrong rarely possesses me much anymore. (or at least as much as once it did) What I do acknowledge is your time and thoughtfulness in response to make your understanding clear to me.

And I appreciate it...and cannot help but be influenced by it.
 

gemcgrew

Senior Member
My original post question is about ....
I see no where in this above process where I am instructed by God in The Bible to request "Forgiveness" after having Him having granting me "Forgiveness" at the instant I accepted His only Son Jesus as my Savior.... for all my sins.
Forgiveness of sin is not for our sake. No believer is constantly seeking forgiveness of sin.

That is the work of unbelievers.
 
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