Sincere Q on when a Believer is to ask 'Forgiveness.'

Madman

Senior Member
The question comes to mind, since Christ’s responses are frequently meant to direct the questioner toward the Father, when asked in Matthew 18 how many times should I forgive?

Christ did not respond by saying all is forgiven forever, he responded by saying to forgive as many times as you as asked.

So does the Father, I direct you back to the Lord’s Prayer.

As I said, I believe the your real question is how does one enter heaven with unrepentant sin.
 

Madman

Senior Member
I would ask where some of these “doctrines” come from?

Biblically where do we read all sins past, present, future, are forgiven?

Where is it written that asking forgiveness is for the unbeliever?
 

Israel

Senior Member
I would be inclined to think in those terms that the believer has had already made known to him the "where" to seek forgiveness, as it is only from the merciful Lord. So, in that sense he is not looking for/seeking what is unknown to him.

The unbeliever is still seeking to know this place if he might even know it for himself.

To the believer it is known.

To the unbeliever, at best...only as "not as yet."



Do any care to know how much this passage in the Lord's prayer can be loved?

"forgive us our trespasses/debts as we forgive others."



taking "as we"...meaning in like manner.

(There has been made mention elsewhere of the perfection of circular reasoning)




What an incentive! If I would know God "as" my Father responding to my trespasses (would you doubt my enumerating?)...as one who responds with "think nothing of it"...all I need discover is how to exercise that...myself.

Now this is the perfection of the circularity...there's only one place this is taught! And it is not me teaching myself.

Oh! To see that place where love takes no offense! It is worth all the seeing!

And abiding!

But to whom can I look to discover what abiding looks like?

Thanks be to God He has stolen my choices of whom to see, and where to look!

In all a believer is surrounded...perfectly.

And the fullness of this joy is promised...

God does not forgive grudgingly...O! the roads I have taken...yet He still makes known the path of life!

Were we to be convinced, provoked even to consider this...

this how God gives so lavishly, hilariously, abundantly, forgives...all we need investigate is "who asked for it"...for us!
 
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Thread starter #64
Double M ~ My replies in CAPs inserted....

The question comes to mind, since Christ’s responses are frequently meant to direct the questioner toward the Father, when asked in Matthew 18 how many times should I forgive?

Christ did not respond by saying all is forgiven forever, he responded by saying to forgive as many times as you as asked. THIS IS TALKING ABOUT HOW MORTALS ARE TO FORGIVE MORTALS.

So does the Father, I direct you back to the Lord’s Prayer. AS SAID IN AN EARLIER POST, THIS 'DIRECTIVE' PRECEDED JESUS' DEATH FOR MY SINS.

As I said, I believe the your real question is how does one enter heaven with unrepentant sin. CONCUR ... AND WITH THIS IN MIND, ALSO POSTED A REPLY TO AN ASSOCIATED NEXT POST OF YOURS ~ WHEREIN YOU POSIT A QUESTION FOR WHICH I AM APPRECIATIVE .... AND AM HOPING :unsure: ONE OF US CAN DEFINITIVELY ANSWER?
 
Thread starter #65
I would ask where some of these “doctrines” come from?
1. Biblically where do we read all sins past, present, future, are forgiven?
2. Where is it written that asking forgiveness is for the unbeliever?
MM -
1. Wonderfully important question. I see this and hear this 'doctrine' constantly in my 'Protestant Reformed' circles, yet I have yet to knowingly see the specific supporting Scripture. If it does or does not exist, it is probably going to take me a day or 3 to get back. Meanwhile, I am hopeful another more Scripture knowledgeable person than I will post to your question specifying Scripture existence or lack there of.
2. Apologies in advance; however, who in preceding posts is asking this question? More over, I suppose : ), why would the unbeliever even care to request forgiveness?????? (I guess cause he was beginning to sense the reality of God and there of 'seeking' God) .... I understand how "2." relates to "1.;" however, that question leads to a plethora of others and others to others and others to others, taking us away from the Original Post question, no?
 
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gemcgrew

Senior Member
I see this and hear this 'doctrine' constantly in my 'Protestant Reformed' circles, yet I have yet to knowingly see the specific supporting Scripture.
I am not speaking for the 'Protestant Reformed', whoever they are.
John 1:29, Hebrews 1:3, Hebrews 9:26,1 John 3:5 and a plethora of others.

Christ was either made sin... or He wasn't. (2 Corinthians 5:21)
 
Thread starter #67
Thread starter #68
MM -
Wonderfully important question,
i.e., (Post #62, above) "I would ask where some of these “doctrines” come from?
Biblically where do we read all sins past, present, future, are forgiven?
"
If it does or does not exist, it is probably going to take me a day or 3 to get back. Meanwhile, I am hopeful another more Scripture knowledgeable person than I will post to your question specifying Scripture existence or lack there of.
The purpose of this post is simply to report back related to above, that which I have not found and have found.
This post is not to suggest how any of us should think …
each to his / her own conclusions.
What I have not found is specific Scripture saying that:
  • Jesus died for the believer’s sins of past & present & future; of omission & co-mission; and of known & unknown.
  • Jesus died for “all” (this exact word) of the sins of the believer.
  • The believer is to ask for forgiveness after having accepted Jesus as his Savior.
  • The believer is saved for some sins upon his acceptance of Jesus as his Savior, and then other sins beyond that point in time where by the believer fails to ask for forgiveness, that the believer is not saved.
  • The believer is to ask forgiveness beyond the point where the believer accepts Jesus as his savior.
What I have found that is Scripture specific:
  • The believer is saved (past tense) of his sins thru Jesus’ having taken on the punishment of those sins …. with regard to this in one concordance (NIV 1985 by Zondervan Publishing) there were 29 Scriptures cited which I’d guess are at least 80% supportive of the preceding sentence. All 29 explicitly used the word ‘saved’ and ‘sins.’
  • An additional Scripture that may be helpful to the understanding is one which used the word ‘save,’ Hebrew 7:25 -
  • NIV: “…He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him…”
  • KJV: “…He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him…”
Am looking forward to learning what others have found?
Thanks ~ Joe.
 

Madman

Senior Member
MM -
1. Wonderfully important question. I see this and hear this 'doctrine' constantly in my 'Protestant Reformed' circles, yet I have yet to knowingly see the specific supporting Scripture. If it does or does not exist, it is probably going to take me a day or 3 to get back. Meanwhile, I am hopeful another more Scripture knowledgeable person than I will post to your question specifying Scripture existence or lack there of.
2. Apologies in advance; however, who in preceding posts is asking this question? More over, I suppose : ), why would the unbeliever even care to request forgiveness?????? (I guess cause he was beginning to sense the reality of God and there of 'seeking' God) .... I understand how "2." relates to "1.;" however, that question leads to a plethora of others and others to others and others to others, taking us away from the Original Post question, no?
I will say most people I know who argue for the forgiveness of future sins use Hebrews 10:14 as justification for their doctrine.
 
Thread starter #71

Madman

Senior Member
Double M ~ My replies in CAPs inserted....
Yes humans forgiving humans but in the same manner the Father forgives, as many times as asked.
We are in the process of becoming gods, and should therefore act as such. Should we only forgive once?

No evidence is seen for the argument against the Lord’s Prayer. The statement by our Lord is “When you pray…..”. There is no exclusionary statement, as in “until my death”. Are we to not pray at all after his death, are we not bless His name? I believe that argument is a “doctrinal justification”.

I simply ask we all stop and Biblically visit sin, confession, and forgiveness.

When one asks their spouse for forgiveness and it is given, is there no need to ask again if one does a wrong?

Let’s not warp Holy Scripture for the sake of our doctrine.

“God so loved the world that he sent his only son ……”
 
Thread starter #74
We are in the process of becoming gods, ”
Could you kindly guide to the Scripture that tells me what you just posited?
Thx.
 

Madman

Senior Member
Could you kindly guide to the Scripture that tells me what you just posited?
Thx.
I respectfully asked that we stay on the topic at hand. Keep that thought and let's discuss that later.

Do you have a response to the body of my post? As it is on topic, I asked that you provide evidence that Christ expected his disciples to only pray "this way" until his death.
 
Thread starter #76
[1.] I respectfully asked that we stay on the topic at hand. Keep that thought and let's discuss that later.
[2.] Do you have a response to the body of my post? As it is on topic, I asked that you provide evidence that Christ expected his disciples to only pray "this way" until his death.
1. You predicated your post, in part, on your statement 'we are in the process of becoming gods,' so I thought it might be helpful to inquire with you of the Scripture basis for your view. Hence, my question. For whatever it is worth, I, personally, am not knowingly in the process of becoming a 'god' of any type.
2. I have no reason to add to anything about Jesus' timing of His instructions on 'requesting forgiveness,' prior to Him having taken on my sins, than that which I have clearly offered in my Posts #1 and #64. Meanwhile, for whatever it is worth, I am at peace with two people reading the same Scripture and interpreting it in different fashions. My interpretation, is, for me, self-evident, and completely theological.
 

Madman

Senior Member
1. You predicated your post, in part, on your statement 'we are in the process of becoming gods,' so I thought it might be helpful to inquire with you of the Scripture basis for your view. Hence, my question. For whatever it is worth, I, personally, am not knowingly in the process of becoming a 'god' of any type.
2. I have no reason to add to anything about Jesus' timing of His instructions on 'requesting forgiveness,' prior to Him having taken on my sins, than that which I have clearly offered in my Posts #1 and #64. Meanwhile, for whatever it is worth, I am at peace with two people reading the same Scripture and interpreting it in different fashions. My interpretation, is, for me, self-evident, and completely theological.
Ok. I agree, one can read Holy Scripture and glean what one sees. Personally I find confusion in being able to decide one part of “command” can be left out while other parts of the same command are followed.

Then again I have always believed it is the responsibility of the Church to teach and the Bible to prove.
 
Yes, J_seph, you are certainly right; and, in doing so * i have developed the understanding to the distinct differences between:
1. Asking for forgiveness (not to mention praying/begging! for related awareness of alllll my sins ... omission and comission as well as known by me and unknown by me :- );
2. Confessing sins - which serves to remind me on how beyond mortal comprehension thankful i am to be for Him having taken on all my sins; &
3. Being repentant.

The Q which arises by appealing to Him a second time (consistent with The Bible i accepted His salvation from all my sins at the time i was accepted Him as my only means of salvation) for **forgiveness ...
did i not accept His Promise in the first place as true that all my sins were forgiven?
i DO want to know of all my sins cause it thereby enables me to confess my awareness, the actual sin itself (grievously of course!) + my refreshened (sp?) awareness of His having taken on that specific sin .... as well as all the others ... which in turn grows my thankfulness for Him having unconditionally & marvelously done so.

Yup, certainly a wonderful *** point that is directly related to the proportionality of the dispensing of riches we are told to expect in Heaven (the concept here usually advanced, as i anticipate you have probably heard/read as well :- ), is that all of our glasses are full .... we probably just all have different size glasses.

And, in 1st John 1:9 **** my personal interpretation (not suggesting it should be yours, or that of others :- ) is that at the time i accepted Christ as my only means of salvation of all my sins (i confessed all my sins ... overt, convert + those those of which i will and will not as a mortal ever be even aware no matter how much i may wish to be aware) AND consistent with His promise, therein & throughout The Bible, He right then and there forgave me ... in my humble view;
if He hadn't i never be able to get into Heaven cause i HAVE to be sinless in the eyes of God to be accepted and it is only thru Christ's salvation that i can be so .... and God & Christ & The Holy Spirit, being omniscient, are the only 'entities' that KNOW of all the sins of which i will never mortally know. Thus if i do not know of the sins, and if i must confess again to be saved from them, i will never be saved of them cause i do not know of them for which to ask forgiveness again < hence i shall never get to Heaven.
A couple of interesting points (to me) in 1John 1:9:
1) John begins with " If we "; he very much includes himself in this teaching
2) the word confess is in the present tense, suggesting continuous action

I believe we should be careful to read v.9 along with vs.8&10. Has Jesus' blood covered my sin? Yes, praise God. Am I set free from slavery to sin? Yes, praise God. Am I a sinner? Yes, but He is faithful and just, Where sin did abound, grace did much more abound.

A question to ponder: What was Jesus teaching us when he washed the disciples' feet? He stated that those who have been bathed have no need to wash except their feet but is completely clean(my paraphrase).
 
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