Small pistol magnum primers in North GA?

Jester896

Senior Member
if I did that I would use my primer pocket reamer and cut the pocket a little deeper on a handful of cases that I had no choice but to use and use a red sharpie to color them...I wouldn't want that primer sticking out even .001.

Most times I will err on the side of safety....
like necking something up or down with a case stamp on it...I might not be the one that uses it.
 
This Primer strength test was done by CabineTree and is not way a scientific test ... It does list primer strength using crude number/mass testing ...

This testing was done to try and rank primers by power (brisance).

This is the home made tester. The shot is fired against a weight which in turn moves a pointer. The pointer remains at the highest point of the shot.

This shows the pointer after a shot has been fired. In this case, it was a Federal large rifle magnum

NOTE: This data is reference only. This is on a DMS (don't mean squat) scale. It is relative to this set of tests and this tester. Take them with a grain of salt and as a guide only. Most of the tests were of 100 or more primers. A few were of 50 when limited amounts were available.

Ranked in order of power

Large Rifle = LR, Large Rifle Magnum = LRM, Large pistol =LP,

Brand/type Power Average Range Std. Dev

1 Fed Match GM215M 6.12 5.23-6.8 .351

2 Federal 215 LRM 5.69 5.2-6.5 .4437

3 CCI 250 LRM 5.66 4.5-7.4 .4832

4 Winchester WLRM 5.45 5.1-6.0 .2046

5 Remington 9 1/2 LRM 5.09 3.5-6.75 .6641

6 Winchester WLR 4.8 4.1-6.0 .4300

7 Remington 9 1/2 LR 4.75 3.7-6.25 .5679

8 Fed Match GM210M 4.64 4.0-5.6 .3296

9 Federal 210 LR 4.62 3.7-5.5 .3997

10 CCI BR2 4.37 4.0-5.0 .2460

11 CCI 200 LR 4.28 3.8-4.8 .3218

12 KVB 7 LR Russian 4.27 3.8-4.8 .2213

13 Rem 91/2 (30 yrs old) 4.16 3.8-4.8 .3427

Pistol primers

14 Rem LP 4.47 3.2-5.6 .5171

15 KVB 45 LP Russian 3.89 3.3-4.2 .2232

16 CCI 300 LP 3.18 2.7-3.5 .2406

17 Federal 150 LP 3.11 2.6-3.5 .2090

18 Fed Match GM150M 3.05 2.6-3.7 .2299

This is a retype after losing the original web page. I did not put in the individual comments. Note the spreads. The Rem's had some very wild shots high and low. CCI BR2 and the Fed 's were the most even of the common ones. The new Russian were very even, but this was a limited lot and they are not widely available.

Weighing Primers: I did some test weighing and found the bench rest had virtually no variations. Of the others, there WAS a relation between weight and power. Those extra heavy tended to be stronger, and light were weaker.

Firing pin strength also seems to be a definite factor. Stronger hit is probably more consistent. This has been noted by some sharps shooters when they break a firing pin. It will still fire, but they get fliers and open groups.

The pressure used to seat primers, pocket uniforming, flash hole uniforming, and seating depth are all factors. Keep them all the sam
 
This is rather long ....but rather good reading on primers...

CHOOSING THE RIGHT PRIMER - A PRIMER ON PRIMERS

Based on an article by John Barsness - GUNS magazine pg 26 May 2009. [JB, formerly of Handloader is one of the most qualified gunwriters when it comes to primers and reloading in general]
Information from the Speer #14, Hornady #7, Nosler#6, and Lyman #49 reloading manuals, Alliant and Accurate Arms data.
Additional Information from James Calhoon - "Primers and Pressure" Varmint Hunter Magazine, October, 1995

Hopefully this explains a bit more about, not only primers in general, but specific characteristics that can aid a reloader in choosing the optimum sparkplug. Pertinent information will be added to this section when more information becomes available.

BRISANCE

Primers come in different strengths, technically known as “brisance,” a word defined as “the shattering effect of a high explosive.”
Primer brisance mostly depends on the length of the flame that leaps out of the flash-hole after the firing pin whacks the primer cup. This flame can also be manipulated to last a little longer, by adding tiny particles of other flammable material to the priming compound. These differences really can effect not just accuracy but pressure.

For instance, in a very small rifle cartridge such as the .22 Hornet, a “hotter” primer might start to dislodge the bullet before the powder really gets going. Instead of a relatively gentle, slowly accelerating push, the bullet gets cruelly hit hard. This is why some Hornet fans use small pistol primers, with much milder brisance than small rifle primers.

Really huge rifle cases such as the biggest Weatherbys, Remington Ultra Mags, and older British African cartridges require a lot of very slow-burning powder to operate at all. Slower-burning powders are normally more difficult to ignite, and a bigger flame of longer duration helps, especially in cooler weather. The first “magnum” primer, the Federal 215 was designed for this very purpose. Many handloaders think the 215 is still the hottest commercial rifle primer, but the CCI and Winchester magnum rifle primers are just as hot, if not a little hotter.

Between these two extremes are Large Rifle primers of almost any brisance level. Remington and CCI primers tend to be the mildest “standard” primers and Winchesters the hottest (the reason that Winchester never had a magnum rifle LR primer until recently), with Federals somewhere between. Deciding which to use depends not only on the size of the case but the powder.

How fast a powder burns depends not only on granule size (bigger granules have more relative surface area) but on exterior coatings. Extruded powders, such as relatively small-grained 4895 or large-grained H-4831 depend mostly on granule size to control burning rate. Ball powders don’t vary much in granule size, so depend mostly on relatively flame-resistant exterior coatings to control burning rate. By definition, these coatings make ball powders harder to ignite.

For example, in the 30-06, IMR 4895 is very easy to ignite, one reason it’s often suggested for reduced loads down to 2/3 of a case’s capacity. We’ll probably get the very best accuracy from a mild primer such as the CCI 200.
To make the 30-06 zip however, we might try Ramshot Big Game. The Ramshot ball powders burn cleaner than most ball powders, but they also require more flame. Winchester Large Rifle primers are the hottest “standard” rifle primer and often perform very well with Ramshot powders, but if they don’t definitely try a magnum primer. This can often result in smaller groups.

Something else to remember is that competition rifle shooters often favor mild primers i.e. primers that produce just enough heat to properly ignite the powder. They feel that as primer brisance gets higher, it also gets less repeatable from primer to primer. Another train of thought is that the powder is ignited a tad more gently. When this happens, the front slope of the pressure curve is less steep. Which means the bullet is pushed a tad more gently into the rifling which tends to deform it less. Whatever the scientific reason, competitive rifle shooters seem to feel that the milder primers give both better velocity uniformity and accuracy.

The same principles also applies to handgun cases. You might find that magnum primers aren’t good for milder loads, especially with cast bullets for some reason or another (Elmer Keith claimed that the hot flame tended to slightly melt the base of the bullet - no way of knowing if that is true.) Whatever the case, often using a standard pistol primer can reduce group size with milder or cast loads.
On the other hand, magnum primers are almost always recommended for magnum loads, especially if hard-to-ignite ball powders like W296, or its H-110 twin, are used. In fact, magnum pistol primers were developed for the large case revolver magnums like the .357, .41, and .44 Magnums. They seldom are needed for standard autoloader rounds or standards like the .38 Special.
Some powder manufacturers recommend standard pistol primers with certain of their powders even in magnum pistol loads. Alliant 2400 is one where the use of magnum primers is strongly discouraged, and another is Accurate Arms, which recommends standard pistol primers with their handgun powders, including #9, unless “they provide better accuracy in your firearm.”

There also is an unusual situation that should be considered when deciding whether to use standard or magnum primers with ball powders that is pointed out in the Speer manual: Powder manufacturers may state that their propellents do not require magnum primers. This is generally true at maximum safe pressure levels. But Speer’s ballistic testing fully explores propellent behavior over the usable range of charge weights. They often found that a particular propellent works fine with standard CCI primers at the maximum safe pressure. However it may not consistently ignite with lower charge weights. In the lower pressure regimes typical of “starting loads” they commonly saw increased extremes of pressure and velocity. Some ball powders ignited by standard CCI primers will even produce short hang-fires–called “click-bangs” for obvious reasons–at start load levels but not at maximum safe pressure. In those cases the use of magnum CCI primers to insure performance over the range of charge weights is recommended (or perhaps a switch to a hotter standard primer such as the Winchester WLR).

So as you can see, picking the right primer brisance can be very important and can give you optimum accuracy and consistent performance. Fortunately for us there are primers of every brisance level in every category of primer, whether it be standard or magnum.

CUP THICKNESS

Different primers have different cup thicknesses. You can see the importance of cup thickness when primers are considered for semiautomatic rifles that have free-floating firing pins. This topic is discussed in greater detail in the post "MILSPEC PRIMERS FOR SEMI-AUTOS FAQ AND INFO" that follows the primer chart.

Handgun primers have thinner cups than rifle primers, making them easier to ignite with the typically weaker firing pin fall of handguns. Small Pistol primer cups are .017" thick, while Large Pistol primer cups are .020" thick. This is the reason using handgun primers in .22 Hornet rifle loads sometimes results in pierced primers in some guns. Obviously their substitution in the high pressure .223 Remington would not be a good idea.

Even the same type of primers from different manufacturers can have different cup thickness. Federal primers tend to have thinner cups than Winchester, Remington and CCI primers. On occasion this can be handy. Some revolver trigger and action lightening jobs may result in a lighter hammer fall that results in not all the primers going off. A switch to Federal pistol primers can make the load 100% again. The same thing can happen in cold weather with some “modern” bolt actions with light, fast firing pins. These are supposed to whack primers with the same approximate energy as an old-fashioned 98 Mauser strike, but under some adverse conditions they can occasionally use a little help. Federal primers can provide that help.
With Remington small rifle primers, the 6 ½ primer has a thin cup and is not recommended for higher pressure rounds like the common .223 Remington. It was intended for the .22 Hornet. When Remington introduced their .17 Remington round in 1971 they found that the 6 ½ primer was not suitable to the high-pressure .17. The 7 ½ BR primer was developed for this reason. According to Remington, the 7 ½ has a 25% greater cup thickness and they state on their web site: "In rifle cartridges, the 6-1/2 small rifle primer should not be used in the 17 Remington, 222 Remington or the 223 Remington. The 7-1/2 BR is the proper small rifle primer for these rounds."
CCI/Speer Technical Services says: "The CCI 400 primer does have a thinner cup bottom than CCI 450, #41 or BR4 primers... [with] the CCI #41 primer... there is more 'distance' between the tip of the anvil and the bottom of the cup." so that is their AR15 recommendation, although it seems like there are no complaints with using the BR4 and 450 primers by AR15 shooters and reloaders, in general. The #41 just gives you a little more safety margin for free-floating firing pins and would be the best choice for commercial reloaders who have no control over the rifles their .223 ammo is used in.

Another factor which determines the strength of a primer cup is the work hardened state of the brass used to make the primer cup. They are made with cartridge brass (70% copper, 30% zinc), which can vary from 46,000 psi, soft, to 76,000 psi tensile strength when fully hardened. Manufacturers specify to their brass suppliers the hardness of brass desired. It is possible that a primer manufacturer could choose a harder brass in order to keep material thickness down and reduce costs. Winchester WSR primers are somewhat thin, yet seem to be resistant to slam-fires and this is likely due to this hardness factor.

Large rifle primers all appear to have the same cup thickness of .027", no matter what the type.

This also affects pressure tolerance. Cases that utilize small rifle primers and operate at moderate pressures(40,000 psi) should use CCI 400, Federal 200, Rem 6 1/2, or Win WSR. Such cases include 22 CCM, 22 Hornet and the 218 Bee. These primers can also used in handguns such as the 9mm., 357, etc. Other cases that use the small rifle primer can use the above primers only if moderate loads are used. Keep to the lower end of reloading recommendations.
Cases that utilize Small Rifle primers and operate at higher pressures (55,000 psi) should use CCI 450, CCI BR4, Fed 205 and Rem 7 1/2 etc.

MATCH or BENCH REST PRIMERS

The difference between match primers and standard primers is the degree of testing and quality control used in their making. Hornady reports that in their research that match-grade primers performed very, very consistently from load to load as measured in their pressure tests. CCI states that Benchrest cups and anvils are selected for exceptional uniformity. During the assembly operation, the operator who meters the primer mix into the cups (or "charger") is chosen from the most experienced workers with an outstanding record of consistency. The BR line runs at a little slower pace to provide time for extra inspection.
 
Thread starter #26
Not that I had found.
Well, I got my hands on 2,000 small pistol primers and bought out of principle. Any suggestions on whether this will be a problem loading 357? I use coated semi-wadcutters and think I have 296, 110, and Unique on hand.

I've heard that the slower burning powders (296/110) need the SPM, but also hear of folks not having problems. Any suggestions would be appreciated - or if someone is in the mountains and looking to swap some primers.
 

WishboneW

Senior Member
I have loaded 38 so and 357 with HS6 with CCI regular primers with good results. Richard Lee’s Modern reloading second edition has plenty of loads for everything using no magnum primers

I have also used H110 for 357 using regular CCI.
 
Well, I got my hands on 2,000 small pistol primers and bought out of principle. Any suggestions on whether this will be a problem loading 357? I use coated semi-wadcutters and think I have 296, 110, and Unique on hand.

I've heard that the slower burning powders (296/110) need the SPM, but also hear of folks not having problems. Any suggestions would be appreciated - or if someone is in the mountains and looking to swap some primers.
You will be ok except for really cold weather.... the magnums would be better ....but I have loaded regular primers under HS6 & H110 with out any problems ....
 
I was spraying a clients house and 2400 sq ft building today. He probably had 50,000 or more pistol primers and boxes and boxes, 1,000 per box of bullets. You name it he had it. I have never seen that many components.
 
Thread starter #30
I was spraying a clients house and 2400 sq ft building today. He probably had 50,000 or more pistol primers and boxes and boxes, 1,000 per box of bullets. You name it he had it. I have never seen that many components.
Modern day millionaire... he should retire to hustle on Gunbroker :LOL:
 

rosewood

Senior Member
Well, I got my hands on 2,000 small pistol primers and bought out of principle. Any suggestions on whether this will be a problem loading 357? I use coated semi-wadcutters and think I have 296, 110, and Unique on hand.

I've heard that the slower burning powders (296/110) need the SPM, but also hear of folks not having problems. Any suggestions would be appreciated - or if someone is in the mountains and looking to swap some primers.
Dang, if you was any where near me we could trade. I have plenty of CCI SPM primers that I bought because it was all in stock at the time. Bet you found those at Alexander's didn't you? I stopped in there a few months back and was surprised at how much ammo and reloading supplies they had in stock when everyone else was about bone dry.

I had used standard small pistol primers for .357 mag with H110 for years with never a misfire. Only recently I decided to start using magnum in .357 mag with H110 after reading all the folks that recommend it.

Rosewood
 
Thread starter #32
Dang, if you was any where near me we could trade. I have plenty of CCI SPM primers that I bought because it was all in stock at the time. Bet you found those at Alexander's didn't you? I stopped in there a few months back and was surprised at how much ammo and reloading supplies they had in stock when everyone else was about bone dry.

I had used standard small pistol primers for .357 mag with H110 for years with never a misfire. Only recently I decided to start using magnum in .357 mag with H110 after reading all the folks that recommend it.

Rosewood
Actually picked them up short notice from Brownell's... missed some on Natchez today, too. But you're right, Alexander's is still hanging in there on a few fronts. I was there the other day, plenty of bullets in the not as popular calibers (6 mm, 257, 338) and some decent powder on the shelf. They haven't had primers in over 4 months though.

I'll give the standards a shot - heard Unique is a good powder and I don't load very hot for plinking anyhow.
 
Actually picked them up short notice from Brownell's... missed some on Natchez today, too. But you're right, Alexander's is still hanging in there on a few fronts. I was there the other day, plenty of bullets in the not as popular calibers (6 mm, 257, 338) and some decent powder on the shelf. They haven't had primers in over 4 months though.

I'll give the standards a shot - heard Unique is a good powder and I don't load very hot for plinking anyhow.
How long ago was you bought these from Brownells ?

Hoping to see them start showing up again.....
 
Thread starter #34
How long ago was you bought these from Brownells ?

Hoping to see them start showing up again.....
A few days ago! Christmas miracle. I’ve heard that the big shops (Natchez, Powder Valley, Brownell’s, Midsouth, etc) all get a shipment now and then. Usually cleared out in minutes. I’ll post here if I see anything.
 
Natchez sold out today in less time than it would take to type out a thread on here, powder valley has taken all of their primers off the website because they sold out so quickly Monday. The only way you're gonna get some from them is through discord.
 
Thread starter #36
I have loaded 38 so and 357 with HS6 with CCI regular primers with good results. Richard Lee’s Modern reloading second edition has plenty of loads for everything using no magnum primers

I have also used H110 for 357 using regular CCI.
Forgot that I’ve got an earlier copy of Lee’s reloading... looks like things were simpler then! They point out magnum primers in the text but don’t have any called out for the loads.

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Thread starter #37
Natchez sold out today in less time than it would take to type out a thread on here, powder valley has taken all of their primers off the website because they sold out so quickly Monday. The only way you're gonna get some from them is through discord.
I finally signed up for the Discord reloading deal a week or two ago. Haven’t been too successful since you’ve got to watch it like a hawk. I did pick up some bullets and powder so it’s been helpful a couple times. I’m pretty sure it’s never been this bad.
 
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