The Great Commission, what to teach?

[hummerpoo]

Art, I "think" (my lowest category of certainty) you need to read through this thread over and over until you grasp the sense of all that has been said in response to your statements and questions.

 

[Artfuldodger]

How could you believe (Christ or) Christ's commandments mean anything at all except the Spirit reveal?

Because I figured they might be written down since Jesus mentioned it so often in 1 John.
Do we now cast aside all written commandments for that of Spiritual reveal only?
What about all of the commands that Paul revealed about women and homosexuals?

 

[Artfuldodger]

Is the command from Jesus to teach keeping His commandments part of obedience?
Lots of New Testament verses on being obedient to God. How is one obedient to God if not following what God commands us to do?

I admit it's a bit of an enigma. Trying to seek this obedience of God's commands with His grace. Trying to follow the physical aspects of obedience within the spiritual life as well.
Then to go beyond just doing it personally and teach discipleship. Most students want a book, a lesson plan, guides. Not some mystical, spiritual, new wave philosophical approach.

 

[StriperAddict]

I see how easy it is to fight against Spirit led motivation.

Yet in it, oops, in Him, is peace for the "As you go" of the "commission".

 

[Artfuldodger]

I see how easy it is to fight against Spirit led motivation.

Yet in it, oops, in Him, is peace for the "As you go" of the "commission".

I'm 100% in agreement with being Spirit lead. That being said Jesus told us to make disciples and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
He didn't say, tell new disciples the Holy Spirit will teach them what it means to obey every thing I have commanded you.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Step 1) As we go about our ways we are to make disciples. I would assume maybe God has already called them, or perhaps that might be part of the process of "us" making disciples. Either way, the commission stands....................

We do part 1 and 2 pretty good but what about 3?

I think we do a pee pot poor job of step one. If we did a good job of making disciples, then why do the stats say that the 'christians' have the same divorce rate as non christians? Why do over 60% of the evangelical church attenders say that morals are subjective, and that there are no absolute truths?

No, we don't do a good job a making disciples at all. A disciple follows the lead and teaching of his master. In America, it is very easy to be a 'Christian'. However, it is very difficult to be a disciple.

I am the chief sinner.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I just read the book of James. Wow, he has more rules than Paul even. Plus James says most of us ain't cut out to be teachers.

One other thing, if this teaching what obey the commands means is just something spiritual or I can be lead to teach it just spiritually, why has James and Paul gone overboard to spell it all out?

 

[StriperAddict]

I'm 100% in agreement with being Spirit lead. That being said Jesus told us to make disciples and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
He didn't say, tell new disciples the Holy Spirit will teach them what it means to obey every thing I have commanded you.

Your confusing following, as following the rules and laws, compared to direction by the holy spirit, which is every believers inheritance in Christ.

"But the anointing which ye have received from Him abideth in you, and ye have no need that any man teach you. But as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him." 1 Jn 2:27

Time for the body of Christ to have a sincere revelation of this truth, and believe it. The power of God is the gospel, and we've already been given gifts and everything we need for living abundantly and bearing His fruit.

It's easy to make the great comission harder than it is. Sure we will stumble often but even our faithlessness doesn't prevent Father from using our testimony. Humble dependence when we are weakest can be gospel strength to a spirituality dying world.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Your confusing following, as following the rules and laws, compared to direction by the holy spirit, which is every believers inheritance in Christ.

"But the anointing which ye have received from Him abideth in you, and ye have no need that any man teach you. But as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him." 1 Jn 2:27

Time for the body of Christ to have a sincere revelation of this truth, and believe it. The power of God is the gospel, and we've already been given gifts and everything we need for living abundantly and bearing His fruit.

It's easy to make the great comission harder than it is. Sure we will stumble often but even our faithlessness doesn't prevent Father from using our testimony. Humble dependence when we are weakest can be gospel strength to a spirituality dying world.

The Great Commission isn't about my learning, it says teach them what it means to obey every thing I have commanded you.
Maybe I don't need to be taught my man but these new disciples must. Otherwise Jesus would not have made it a part of the Great Commission.

He would have just given us parts 1 & 2.

You did give a verse on the fact that man does on need man to teach. We also have verses that say man does not need man to call.
Like I said James said we might not all need to be teachers.

Since James said that then perhaps some of us do need to be teachers. That with the fact that Jesus told us to teach makes me believe we should do it. Perhaps along the same line of predestination and prayer or predestination and calling.

I doubt Jesus needs us to go, make disciples, and teach.

 

[Artfuldodger]

The word in Matthew 28:20 for teaching is didaskontes. I also agree there are more ways to teach than the Holy Scripture. By "example" is a great example.

didaskontes is used in other verses which to me it seems like giving instruction. Plus we quote on this forum from men that we think are doing the Great Commission.

Worship my teachings
Teach my doctrines
Teach them to observe
Teach the people, teach and preach,

It seems to be a really big part of Christianity. Learning, teaching, witnessing, spreading, etc.
Not that I think God needs us to do this but it's still a big part of Scripture. It's like even with the Holy Spirit we still need man.

Which brings to mind the question of how the early Native Americans were called, made disciples, and taught. Maybe since God knew man hadn't made it yet He intervened, called, and taught.
Yet didn't those that God called not teach?

 

[LittleDrummerBoy]

If I am to go, and teach, then should I also baptize?

I see your point, and we should all strive to at some point be teachers. Yet what if someone doesn't feel they are "qualified?" Should they study Scripture to learn what Christ's commandments are or just let the Holy Spirit tell them what Christ's commandments are in a spiritual way instead to the physical way?
I'm still trying to see how far I can become spiritually lead enough by the Spirit that I don't need the physical Western version of the Word to do this.

Don't think of being Spirit led as being different from understanding and following the instructions of Scripture. I find it helpful to think of the discipleship process more like this:

There are lots of instructions in Scripture. At any given time, a rigid application for a disciple would be overwhelming. My experience is that God usually has two or three things on his short list for a given disciple to STOP doing and two or three things on his short list for a given disciple to START doing. Of all the instructions in Scripture, being led by the Spirit helps the disciple know what's next for them in their pursuit of maturity, growth, and sanctification.

In most cases, this passage from Peter provides some guidelines for growth:

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

New believers should have faith, but the Holy Spirit will point them to Scriptures that help solidify their faith and help them grow in goodness. Often, their early discipleship process with include guidance to "stop doing wrong, learn to do right" and "God's grace teaches us to say 'No' to ungodliness and worldly passions."

But there is an order to Christian growth and discipleship. Jumping to the character qualities late in the chart before making progress on earlier qualities is an exercise in frustration.

 

[hummerpoo]

The Great Commission is nothing like a recipe for making biscuits.

 

[gemcgrew]

What is given to the disciple as either command and/or instruction is first to him life. (See what large letter I write)

He may not yet know it, he may not even yet appreciate it...to him it may appear nothing more than any other order to work...but if received from the Lord in faith...the working begins. He may even have "qualms" about it. "We have fished all night...nevertheless at your word..."

And so it all begins. Every single time.

"Because you say so" in every matter of the disciple's walk, from beginning to an end I have not yet seen...but have some boldness about...it remains the same.


"Because you say so" ends in the kissing of the feet with tears of the One who has spoken to you..."Thank you, thank you for telling me..."

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

How comforting it is to know that nobody's destiny is dependent upon our inclinations.

 

[Artfuldodger]

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

How comforting it is to know that nobody's destiny is dependent upon our inclinations.

While that is true Jesus still said "teach them what it means to obey every thing I have commanded you" in his Great Commission." He still said to Baptize.

Plus James and Paul spell it all out in great detail. It might not have anything to do with salvation but it sure sounds like it has everything to do with living, learning and teaching.

James doesn't say anything vague like "the Holy Spirit will teach you." No he goes off the deep end with rules.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Don't think of being Spirit led as being different from understanding and following the instructions of Scripture. I find it helpful to think of the discipleship process more like this:

There are lots of instructions in Scripture. At any given time, a rigid application for a disciple would be overwhelming. My experience is that God usually has two or three things on his short list for a given disciple to STOP doing and two or three things on his short list for a given disciple to START doing. Of all the instructions in Scripture, being led by the Spirit helps the disciple know what's next for them in their pursuit of maturity, growth, and sanctification.

In most cases, this passage from Peter provides some guidelines for growth:

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

New believers should have faith, but the Holy Spirit will point them to Scriptures that help solidify their faith and help them grow in goodness. Often, their early discipleship process with include guidance to "stop doing wrong, learn to do right" and "God's grace teaches us to say 'No' to ungodliness and worldly passions."

But there is an order to Christian growth and discipleship. Jumping to the character qualities late in the chart before making progress on earlier qualities is an exercise in frustration.

That's a good point, we wouldn't want to overwhelm a new disciple. Perhaps teach him grace first and then teach him everything Jesus commanded of him later.

I sure wouldn't want him to read James right away. Heck that even scared me yesterday when I read it.

We wouldn't want to tell the new disciple there will be a resurrection of the good and evil. Maybe we could tell him there will be a resurrection of the saved and unsaved. Plus don't mention Jesus telling about the separation of the Sheep and Goats right away either.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Why didn't Jesus say go, baptize, and spread the gospel? Or go, baptize, and teach them all about grace?

No Jesus says "teach them what it means to obey every thing I have commanded you"

It brings obedience back into the mix. Not that it takes away from grace. It must be very important if Jesus made it a part of His great commission. It's just as important as going and baptizing.

Therefore if we are gonna go and baptize, we also need to teach
"all" that Jesus commanded His disciples to do.

 

[NCHillbilly]

How about you believe what you believe, and let other people believe what they believe? What a novel concept.

 

[gemcgrew]

While that is true Jesus still said "teach them what it means to obey every thing I have commanded you" in his Great Commission." He still said to Baptize.

Plus James and Paul spell it all out in great detail. It might not have anything to do with salvation but it sure sounds like it has everything to do with living, learning and teaching.

James doesn't say anything vague like "the Holy Spirit will teach you." No he goes off the deep end with rules.

Being commanded to do something does not indicate the ability to do it. It points the believer to the only Place rest is found.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Being commanded to do something does not indicate the ability to do it. It points the believer to the only Place rest is found.

Maybe by telling them to teach them everything I have commanded of you, Jesus would know once again that they couldn't do it.

It may have been His last attempt to show us once more that we can't do what Jesus commanded and therefore would need his grace.

Like reverse psychology.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Being commanded to do something does not indicate the ability to do it. It points the believer to the only Place rest is found.

History, the Old Testament is proof of that. You might be on to something. Good observation.