These few things I know.

Ray357

Senior Member
I don't really even know how to explain this but if I had to I'd say maybe God changes his plans according to ours? If man had not followed plan A and crucified His son then God would go to plan B?

At the same time though is he controlling my daily bodily functions? Does he steer hurricane? The ice storm in Texas?

I have also noticed the people are quick to give God credit for the good things like when we overcome the trials he gives us. Like Job and his trials. I don't see it as a test. If not a test then why did God give him those trials?

I'm still a bit by the meaning of your response. If God saw before time that I was going to choose my red shirt over my blue shirt today, could I do differently that what God has already seen? I mean even if God is not in total control, he has already seen my free will choices so it really doesn't matter one way or the other.
I know exactly how the movie "God's and Generals" ended. I know everything that happened in it. Does my end knowledge control the events? Foreknowledge does not logically equate to causation.
 
Arminianism view;
"That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will", and unaided by the Holy Spirit, no person is able to respond to God's will;

This sounds like man has no free will to seek God unaided by the Holy Spirit.
 
I know exactly how the movie "God's and Generals" ended. I know everything that happened in it. Does my end knowledge control the events? Foreknowledge does not logically equate to causation.
I understand that but the foreknowledge would keep you from doing anything different that what God has already seen you do.

In the movie "God's and Generals" can they change the story as it's being told from how it was filmed? Let's say God didn't give us his only son for salvation by the actions of the Romans and Jews. He did fore see how it would happen.
The Word was with God from all Eternity. The story was already written, they lamb was already slain.
 

Ray357

Senior Member
I understand that but the foreknowledge would keep you from doing anything different that what God has already seen you do.
It can't keep you from doing anything. What you are saying is God, because He is Omniscient, is incapable of granting a free choice. You are saying His Omniscience limits His Omnipotence. See a problem with that?
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
What is the economic and social benefit for " free will" suppression? Is it a worldly benefit or a heavenly one?

Personally I think Adam and Eve had free will outside of God's control and continue with it-- in that they can and do disregard or fall in with His authority.
 
It can't keep you from doing anything. What you are saying is God, because He is Omniscient, is incapable of granting a free choice. You are saying His Omniscience limits His Omnipotence. See a problem with that?
I can see that, please explain your sentence "God is in total control but does not control everything."

The one thing I'd really love for everyone to have free will to do is seek God's salvation but most Arminians don't even see that as happening.

If God controls who receives salvation by sending us to the Son, what good is free will to choose a Ford or Chevy? Yet I don't see God choosing one of those trucks for me.
I sure don't understand it all. I'm never in the yeah or nay group. I can see both as being true.
 
What is the economic and social benefit for " free will" suppression? Is it a worldly benefit or a heavenly one?

Personally I think Adam and Eve had free will outside of God's control and continue with it-- in that they can and do disregard or fall in with His authority.
Yet if they had not fell, the Word would of had to stay in Heaven. We wouldn't really have needed salvation from eternal death. If this be the case, why was the Son already slain before creation?
It's like the old Chicken and Egg argument.
 

Ray357

Senior Member
I can see that, please explain your sentence "God is in total control but does not control everything."

The one thing I'd really love for everyone to have free will to do is seek God's salvation but most Arminians don't even see that as happening.

If God controls who receives salvation by sending us to the Son, what good is free will to choose a Ford or Chevy? Yet I don't see God choosing one of those trucks for me.
I sure don't understand it all. I'm never in the yeah or nay group. I can see both as being true.
God is Omnipotent. If He were not in complete control, that would mean He is not all powerful. There would have to be things outside His power to control. There are things He chooses not to control. They are within His control because He can control them, but they are not being controlled by Him because He chooses not to.

It's kind of like a King who has 100,000 elite troops. 25 subjects in his kingdom decide not to pay their tax. King says, leave them alone, they not worth messing with. The king is in control, but chose not to exert that control.
 
If you are not a 5 pointer, you are not a Calvinist. 4 pointers or three pointers, which most Fundamental Baptists are, are not Calvinists.
Indeed; it was the Arminians who pinned the label Calvinist on those with whom thy disagreed but refused the label Arminian and chose to call themselves Remonstrant. Most here have heard my definition of a Calvinist before: One who has tired of explaining what he actually believes (as opposed to what others say he believes).
 

Ray357

Senior Member
Indeed; it was the Arminians who pinned the label Calvinist on those with whom thy disagreed but refused the label Arminian and chose to call themselves Remonstrant. Most here have heard my definition of a Calvinist before: One who has tired of explaining what he actually believes (as opposed to what others say he believes).
I have never really seen your explanations.
We all know there are varying degrees of Calvinism. I personally admire and respect the position of High Calvinism. In its lower or more compromising forms, Calvinism comes off the rails. Same can be said about Arminianism. Most "Arminians' that don't accept the label do so because they are not Arminians.Most Classical Arminians, like myself, won't accept being labeled Arminian either due to the fact I hold the views of the Remonstrance, but not the views of modern Arminianism. Most people hold a totally non-logical and non-Scriptural, blended theology that I call Mutt theory, or mutt Soteriology to be most correct.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Yet if they had not fell, the Word would of had to stay in Heaven. We wouldn't really have needed salvation from eternal death. If this be the case, why was the Son already slain before creation?
It's like the old Chicken and Egg argument.

"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Here is a possible reading:


And all* will adore him, all the inhabitants of the earth who's names is not found written ever since the origin of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was Slain ( Jesus).

I take the noun "all" as meaning those who are worldly who don't belong to the faith and therefore are not in the book of life. Therefore it is not a comment that Jesus was slain before the the origin of the world, rather it is a statement that the worldly who have been around since the fall, or the origin of the world due to the fall as opposed to the earth which was around before the world, and therefore not in the book of life, fall for and adore the Beast because they are carnal. They will root for the wrong team.

In other words perhaps people will follow ideologies of power instead of God's authority and power. Those who know the faith will not worship the beast-- they will not be deceived by lies.

Or in other words again, as Eve fell for the power of the snake at the origin of the world ( the worldly ) those who are without faith or who's faith is weak on this the earth now fall easy for the snake or the beast again just as she ( Eve) did and perhaps easier in some cases. Those without faith worship, but they worship counter to God's purpose. They are in it for themselves and their kind alone.
 
Last edited:

Israel

Senior Member
God is Omnipotent. If He were not in complete control, that would mean He is not all powerful. There would have to be things outside His power to control. There are things He chooses not to control. They are within His control because He can control them, but they are not being controlled by Him because He chooses not to.

It's kind of like a King who has 100,000 elite troops. 25 subjects in his kingdom decide not to pay their tax. King says, leave them alone, they not worth messing with. The king is in control, but chose not to exert that control.
It's kind of like a King who...
Except...it's really not at all, is it?
 

Israel

Senior Member
It's most akin to the King with the invincible military that tells his servants, "you can grow corn, wheat, or barley." King is in control,but servants have a limited FREE choice.
Your example is akin...but is God akin to your example?
 

Israel

Senior Member
Top