"Through" Another challenge

If my salvation was contingent on being a Greek scholar, I'd be as lost as a goat in a hailstorm.

I maintain my initial premise (and warning) that God in the flesh, Christ the Lord (not small L) were part of the creation of man ("let us make man in our image") and the earth.

I'll send this back and be done...
What would be the issue for the Father AND Son (and Holy Spirit for that matter) to be equally involved in creation?
Again, your premise against Christ as Creater has an undercurrent of unbelief... just saying.

:yawn:
And based on this, what would the issue be with God dying on the cross for our sins?
For God so loved the world he made Mary concieve with himself so that he could sacrafice himself for our sins.
 
In Christianity, Sabellianism (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one monadic God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons within the Godhead.

The term Sabellianism comes from Sabellius, a theologian and priest from the 3rd century. Modalism differs from Unitarianism by accepting the Nicean doctrine that Jesus is fully God.

I guess technically God died for our sins, Jesus created the universe, and the Holy Spirit begot the son.
 
Then you must ask why did Jesus ask himself why has he forsaken himself...???
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Then you must ask why did Jesus ask himself why has he forsaken himself...???
Jesus would have only asked that while manifest in the flesh between 0 and 33 ad. God came in the flesh. 100% man and 100% God.



1Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
 
Thread starter #25

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
Jesus would have only asked that while manifest in the flesh between 0 and 33 ad. God came in the flesh. 100% man and 100% God.



1Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Hey friend, Just wondered if you were aware that it does not say God. That would be "theos". But notice it is not there



â—„ 1 Timothy 3:16 â–º
Text Analysis
Strong's Transliteration Greek English Morphology
2532 [e] kai καὶ And Conj
3672 [e] homologoumen�s �μολογουμένως confessedly Adv
3173 [e] mega μέγα great Adj-NNS
1510 [e] estin �στὶν is V-PIA-3S
3588 [e] to τὸ the Art-NNS
3588 [e] tēs τῆς - Art-GFS
2150 [e] eusebeias ε�σεβείας of godliness N-GFS
3466 [e] mystÄ“rion μυστήÏ�ιον· mystery: N-NNS
3739 [e] Hos Ὃς [He] who RelPro-NMS
5319 [e] ephaner�thē �φανε�ώθη was revealed V-AIP-3S
1722 [e] en �ν in Prep
4561 [e] sarki σα�κί, [the] flesh, N-DFS
1344 [e] edikai�thē �δικαιώθη was justified V-AIP-3S
1722 [e] en �ν in Prep
4151 [e] pneumati πνε�ματι, [the] Spirit, N-DNS
3708 [e] �phthē ὤφθη was seen V-AIP-3S
32 [e] angelois ἀγγέλοις, by angels, N-DMP
2784 [e] ekērychthē �κη��χθη was proclaimed V-AIP-3S
1722 [e] en �ν among Prep
1484 [e] ethnesin ἔθνεσιν, [the] nations, N-DNP
4100 [e] episteuthē �πιστε�θη was believed on V-AIP-3S
1722 [e] en �ν in Prep
2889 [e] kosm� κόσμῳ, [the] world, N-DMS
353 [e] anelēmphthē ἀνελήμφθη was taken up V-AIP-3S
1722 [e] en �ν in Prep
1391 [e] doxē δόξῃ. glory. N-DFS
Greek Texts
 
Thread starter #26

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
I was hopeing not to get started on a debate about the divinity of Jesus. It will deter from my point. My point being that Jesus the son as creator is not supported by scripture. The "bys" should have been "throughs". Point being that most fight for Jesus as creator. I say why. What makes one want it to be the son rather than the father? Tradition
 
1 Timothy 3:16
New Living Translation
Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ was revealed in a human body and vindicated by the Spirit. He was seen by angels and announced to the nations. He was believed in throughout the world and taken to heaven in glory.

Some comments I was reading:
Verse 16. - He who for God, A.V. and T.R.; manifested for manifest,
Godliness (τῆς εὐδεβείας); i.e." the Christian faith;" what in 1 Timothy 6:3 is called "The words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the doctrine which is according to godliness (τῇ κατ αὐσεβείαν διδασκαλὶᾳ),"
He who (ὅς). This is generally adopted now as the true reading, instead of Θεός (ΟΣ, instead of ΘΣ). Bishop Ellicott satisfied himself, by most careful personal examination, that the original reading of the Cod. Alex. was ΟΣ, and that it had been altered by a later hand to ΘΣ. The Cod. Sinait certainly has ὅς, and to this all the older versions agree.

The antecedent, therefore, must be understood, and gathered from the preceding words, τὸ μυστήριον τῆς εὐσεβείας. It can only be Christ. The mystery of the whole Old Testament, that which was wrapped in types and hidden under veils, was Christ (Colossians 1:27).

Christ is the Mystery of Christianity. It is, therefore, no difficult step to pass from "the mystery" to "Christ," and to supply the word "Christ" as the antecedent to "who." Was manifested (ἐφανερώθη); a word frequently applied to Christ (John 1:31; 1 John 1:2; 1 John 3:5, 8, etc.).
 
I was hopeing not to get started on a debate about the divinity of Jesus. It will deter from my point. My point being that Jesus the son as creator is not supported by scripture. The "bys" should have been "throughs". Point being that most fight for Jesus as creator. I say why. What makes one want it to be the son rather than the father? Tradition
Could you explain the difference?
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Hey friend, Just wondered if you were aware that it does not say God. That would be "theos". But notice it is not there



â—„ 1 Timothy 3:16 â–º
Text Analysis
Strong's Transliteration Greek English Morphology
2532 [e] kai καὶ And Conj
3672 [e] homologoumen�s �μολογουμένως confessedly Adv
3173 [e] mega μέγα great Adj-NNS
1510 [e] estin �στὶν is V-PIA-3S
3588 [e] to τὸ the Art-NNS
3588 [e] tēs τῆς - Art-GFS
2150 [e] eusebeias ε�σεβείας of godliness N-GFS
3466 [e] mystÄ“rion μυστήÏ�ιον· mystery: N-NNS
3739 [e] Hos Ὃς [He] who RelPro-NMS
5319 [e] ephaner�thē �φανε�ώθη was revealed V-AIP-3S
1722 [e] en �ν in Prep
4561 [e] sarki σα�κί, [the] flesh, N-DFS
1344 [e] edikai�thē �δικαιώθη was justified V-AIP-3S
1722 [e] en �ν in Prep
4151 [e] pneumati πνε�ματι, [the] Spirit, N-DNS
3708 [e] �phthē ὤφθη was seen V-AIP-3S
32 [e] angelois ἀγγέλοις, by angels, N-DMP
2784 [e] ekērychthē �κη��χθη was proclaimed V-AIP-3S
1722 [e] en �ν among Prep
1484 [e] ethnesin ἔθνεσιν, [the] nations, N-DNP
4100 [e] episteuthē �πιστε�θη was believed on V-AIP-3S
1722 [e] en �ν in Prep
2889 [e] kosm� κόσμῳ, [the] world, N-DMS
353 [e] anelēmphthē ἀνελήμφθη was taken up V-AIP-3S
1722 [e] en �ν in Prep
1391 [e] doxē δόξῃ. glory. N-DFS
Greek Texts
Who do you suppose ( He Who) Hos was referring to?
 
The Pre-Existence of Jesus Christ

Last week we celebrated my grandmothers 85 birthday. My uncle said to look around and ponder that all of us here attending came "through" her. Not one of us here were here on account of ourselves. I thought about the debate of through vs by in the scriptures. By implies creator, through implies agent. Here is the challenge, like Hobbs thread, show with the scriptures that Jesus created the universe. Naturally, since I posted this, you realize I have a stand on this. It will be seen that no scripture exists to support this tradition. Even if I were trinitarian, I would feel no need to force Jesus to be the creator. As Hobbs has done, I will point out the greek from which our translations have came from when the suspect verses come up. The bases is that "the old has gone, the new has come" and that nothing new has come that has not come through/on account of Jesus.
The Bible declares that the person we now know as Jesus Christ was one of the three divine persons of the Deity and that as God He had no beginning. It is this time before He became a man that we refer to as His pre-existence. Technically, there is no such thing as existence before Him as God, but He existed before He became a man. Mic.5:1-2 speaks of Him as existing from all eternity. John speaks of Him as existing in the very beginning with the Father (John 1:1-5). Jesus speaks of Himself as being before Abraham and before the world was created (John 8:58; 17:5, 24). Paul speaks of Him as existing before all things and as the creator and upholder of all things (Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-3, 8; 2:10). God the Father created all things by Him (Eph. 3:9) and the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:2).
 
Let's star here:
Colossians 1:27
God wanted to make known among the Gentiles the glorious wealth of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

"I spoke openly to the world. I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where the Jews always meet, and in secret I have said nothing" John 18:20

Now that we've got the mystery/secrets out of the way we can move on to what or how Jesus did any works:

Jesus himself said in John 5:19
Then Jesus replied, "I assure you: The Son is not able to do anything on His own, but only what He sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does these things in the same way.

I think there are a few more verses where Jesus says he only does what his Father gives him the power to do. Now are we to assume that this wasn't a requirement when Jesus created the world?
 
So what gr8bldr is asking has nothing to do with what entity or mode Jesus was in when or if he did any works. As Jesus himself stated, he only did the works of the Father. Now can someone provide a verse where Jesus did otherwise or that this will of Jesus to do only the will of his Father only referred to his time on Earth?
 
Is it possible that "everything" created or done is "through" Jesus?
Jesus is the Logos. God had thoughts/words before the creation.
He created everything through Jesus. Jesus is the Word revealed. The whole concept of the Logos is Jesus being revealed.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Rev 1:8 The NKJV I'm reading doesn't say God in this verse but( Theos )God does show in the Greek just after Lord.

What this proves in the Greek is that scripture says Jesus is God, if Jesus is God then He built the universe. IMO.
 
The Bible declares that the person we now know as Jesus Christ was one of the three divine persons of the Deity and that as God He had no beginning. It is this time before He became a man that we refer to as His pre-existence. Technically, there is no such thing as existence before Him as God, but He existed before He became a man. Mic.5:1-2 speaks of Him as existing from all eternity. John speaks of Him as existing in the very beginning with the Father (John 1:1-5). Jesus speaks of Himself as being before Abraham and before the world was created (John 8:58; 17:5, 24). Paul speaks of Him as existing before all things and as the creator and upholder of all things (Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-3, 8; 2:10). God the Father created all things by Him (Eph. 3:9) and the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:2).

Let's move on with your interpretation. I can believe Jesus was with God before coming to Earth as a man. Show us a verse where he created the universe by himself instead of through himself. The verses below aren't about the mystery of the Trinity. They are about Salvation of the Gentiles.

8To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.
 
Micah 5:2
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

"goings forth" or Ancient promises. God's Logos are from old ancient times. The concept of Jesus is from old ancient times. Time is different from God than from us. Things will still happen in order but to the Logos they are already here.

Granted that Micah's contemporaries understood the prophecy to state merely that a Saviour should arise from the lineage of David who traced his descent from hoar antiquity,

Not the best verse to prove Jesus was before he became a man. I believe he might have been. Does his pre existance proof he created anything by himself instead of through himself?
 
Rev 1:8 The NKJV I'm reading doesn't say God in this verse but( Theos )God does show in the Greek just after Lord.

What this proves in the Greek is that scripture says Jesus is God, if Jesus is God then He built the universe. IMO.
Maybe it doesn't say God because God has no beginning or end.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
 
Rev 1:8 The NKJV I'm reading doesn't say God in this verse but( Theos )God does show in the Greek just after Lord.

What this proves in the Greek is that scripture says Jesus is God, if Jesus is God then He built the universe. IMO.
Wouldn't that also meant God sacrificed himself for our sins? If God became man, man became God.
 
Thread starter #39

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
Who do you suppose ( He Who) Hos was referring to?
Here is what it says;
"confessedely great is the mystery of godliness; He who was revealed in the flesh, was justified by the spirit, was seen by angels.... was taken up in glory...." It is talking about Jesus with no pointing to divinity. He who is Jesus but the word God is not there. Jesus was revealed

http://biblehub.com/text/1_timothy/3-16.htm
 
Thread starter #40

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
Rev 1:8 The NKJV I'm reading doesn't say God in this verse but( Theos )God does show in the Greek just after Lord.

What this proves in the Greek is that scripture says Jesus is God, if Jesus is God then He built the universe. IMO.
Why do we think that is referring to Jesus. Notice the text. John is all over the place. Also notice verse 6 in the greek that our translators have swept under a rug.
Revelation 1:6 ►
Text Analysis
Strong's Transliteration Greek English Morphology
2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj
4160 [e] epoiēsen ἐποίησεν He has made V-AIA-3S
1473 [e] hēmas ἡμᾶς us PPro-A1P
932 [e] basileian βασιλείαν, a kingdom, N-AFS
2409 [e] hiereis ἱερεῖς priests N-AMP
3588 [e] tō τῷ to the Art-DMS
2316 [e] Theō Θεῷ God N-DMS
2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj
3962 [e] Patri Πατρὶ Father N-DMS
846 [e] autou αὐτοῦ, of him: PPro-GM3S


To the God and father of him So are we to think that John just said that Jesus has a God and then tells us Jesus is God?
 
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