Truth About God

Does the Eastern Catholic Church share the Orthodox concept of deification, or do they use the Western theology of mortification?

I honestly don't even know what that means, just found it interesting.
 

Madman

Senior Member
I am not Roman so I cannot speak for them but the Roman Catholic Church does discuss Theosis, or deification in their catechism.

I do know that the ancient church has always and still does hold to the belief of Theosis or deification, the idea, as St. Thomas Aquinas put it; “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods” .

Mankind is to become by grace what God is by nature.
 

Israel

Senior Member
He that planted the ear, shall he not hear? he that formed the eye, shall he not see?

These things fashioned to the end of function are demonstrations of God's already capacity.

He is the hearing One. He is the seeing One.

What we have need "of"...for...(hearing, seeing, working, as with hands) God is in no need of...for He is in Himself...all these. But we are given such...to lead us to.

We are given to reason...that we may discover reason itself. We are given to see that we may learn what sight is. As so with hearing...as so with doing.

We are given to speak the truth, that we may know Him who is truth.
 
Thread starter #84
THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT ANGELS, SERAPHIMS, CHERUBIMS, AND ALL SPIRIT BEINGS HAVE BODIES, SOULS, AND SPIRITS, LIKE MAN.
Here we may state that angels have been seen with the eyes. They have always appeared as men in real spirit bodies. They have bodily parts and can do all things that man can do. They can wage physical combat. They can be bound by chains and confined to material places. They have feelings and passions. They drive horses, keep gates, and do many things. If they are spirit beings and have bodies, soul passions, and spirit faculties, why could not God have a real spirit body with soul passions and spirit faculties and still be a divine being?
 
THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT ANGELS, SERAPHIMS, CHERUBIMS, AND ALL SPIRIT BEINGS HAVE BODIES, SOULS, AND SPIRITS, LIKE MAN.
Here we may state that angels have been seen with the eyes. They have always appeared as men in real spirit bodies. They have bodily parts and can do all things that man can do. They can wage physical combat. They can be bound by chains and confined to material places. They have feelings and passions. They drive horses, keep gates, and do many things. If they are spirit beings and have bodies, soul passions, and spirit faculties, why could not God have a real spirit body with soul passions and spirit faculties and still be a divine being?
How physical will Heaven be? Since we'll all need spiritual bodies in Heaven to hear, see, and interact, is Heaven a real tangible place with rivers, gardens, music, and fountains?
 
Thread starter #87
PAUL MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT MEN CAN UNDERSTAND GOD. He gives us a simple illustration of the Godhead. He says that even sinners can comprehend, "because THAT WHICH MAY BE KNOWN OF GOD IS MANIFEST IN THEM; For God HATH SHEWED IT UNTO THEM. For the INVISIBLE THINGS of him from the creation of the world ARE CLEARLY SEEN BEING UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE, EVEN HIS ETERNAL POWERAND GODHEAD; so that THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE." (Rom. 1:19-21). If the invisible things and the eternal power and Godhead are CLEARLY SEEN by the visible things that God has made in this world, then all we need to do is to use a little common sense in connection with plain statements of Scripture to find out what the Godhead is really like. If sinners can understand God, certainly saints ought to be able to do likewise. There must be some clear and visible thing or things in this world that will help us to understand God so that we can be without excuse for ignorance.
The Scripture certainly does not harmonize with the opinions of men quoted, that no man can comprehend God. It does not sound as if God is such a mystery . If He can be CLEARLY SEEN by something visible in this world, what visible thing on Earth gives us a visible picture of the invisible God?
 
Thread starter #89
Man would naturally be the visible thing that clearly illustrates the Godhead. Man has a body, soul, and spirit; so if he is the visible thing that clearly illustrates what God is like, then God also must have a personal body, soul, and spirit. If the Godhead consists of three separate and distinct persons, as plainly stated in 1 John. 5:7, 8, then we are to believe that each person has a body, soul, and spirit, as is the case with each man. If there are three persons in the Godhead and they exist as one, we must understand this oneness to be the same as in the case of several men being one--one in unity as in John 17:11, 21-23; Matt. 19:5; Heb. 2:11; 1 Cor. 6:17; Acts 4:32.

What is there hard about this to understand since we have concrete examples on Earth of every fact stated here? What is there hard to understand about three persons in the Godhead being three separate persons in the same sense we can conceive of any other three persons? What is there hard to understand about three persons being one in unity as we can conceive of any number of persons? Do we have to believe that three persons must become one person in order to be three in one? Is that the case with three men who are one in unity? If not, then this is not the case of the three separate persons in the Godhead. Is it necessary for all persons who are one in unity to lose their own personality, their own bodies, souls, and spirits, and all get inside one person in order for them to be in unity? Cannot any number of persons retain their individuality and still be one in unity? Could not this be true of the Godhead? Could not God exist as three separate persons with three separate bodies, souls, and spirits, and still be one in unity? Why, then, would we have to claim that such could not be comprehended, since we have concrete examples of the unity of the Godhead in this world? Do we have to believe that the Trinity is such a mystery? Do we have to believe that it bewilders the most astute minds and that it is beyond the comprehension of the most learned? Do we have to believe that God is only one person in the Godhead when the Bible says there are three? Do we have to believe it because we do not understand it? Do we have to believe the other foolish statements in our doctrine books? If we did have to, then we could not believe the plain Scripture. But thank God we do not have to believe something that is not stated in Scripture. We don't have to believe something because we do not understand it.
 
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Man would naturally be the visible thing that clearly illustrates the Godhead. Man has a body, soul, and spirit; so if he is the visible thing that clearly illustrates what God is like, then God also must have a personal body, soul, and spirit. If the Godhead consists of three separate and distinct persons, as plainly stated in 1 John. 5:7, 8, then we are to believe that each person has a body, soul, and spirit, as is the case with each man. If there are three persons in the Godhead and they exist as one, we must understand this oneness to be the same as in the case of several men being one--one in unity as in John 17:11, 21-23; Matt. 19:5; Heb. 2:11; 1 Cor. 6:17; Acts 4:32.
What is there hard about this to understand since we have concrete examples on Earth of every fact stated here? What is there hard to understand about three persons in the Godhead being three separate persons in the same sense we can conceive of any other three persons? What is there hard to understand about three persons being one in unity as we can conceive of any number of persons? Do we have to believe that three persons must become one person in order to be three in one? Is that the case with three men who are one in unity? If not, then this is not the case of the three separate persons in the Godhead. Is it necessary for all persons who are one in unity to lose their own personality, their own bodies, souls, and spirits, and all get inside one person in order for them to be in unity? Cannot any number of persons retain their individuality and still be one in unity? Could not this be true of the Godhead? Could not God exist as three separate persons with three separate bodies, souls, and spirits, and still be one in unity? Why, then, would we have to claim that such could not be comprehended, since we have concrete examples of the unity of the Godhead in this world? Do we have to believe that the Trinity is such a mystery? Do we have to believe that it bewilders the most astute minds and that it is beyond the comprehension of the most learned? Do we have to believe that God is only one person in the Godhead when the Bible says there are three? Do we have to believe it because we do not understand it? Do we have to believe the other foolish statements in our doctrine books? If we did have to, then we could not believe the plain Scripture. But thank God we do not have to believe something that is not stated in Scripture. We don't have to believe something because we do not understand it.
The Trinity of man, body, soul, and spirit clearly illustrates what God is like? So Jesus would be the body, and we have the Holy Spirit, does that leave God as the soul?
 
Thread starter #91
From another standpoint, we can believe that "one God," "one Lord," and "one Spirit" literally mean one in number in some cases, as is plainly stated in 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:3-6. These passages refer to single persons of the three persons in the Trinity. Just as we can speak of three men being one in unity and then single out each of these three men as one in number if we want to speak of them as individuals, so it is with God. There are three persons in the divine unity and three separate persons in the divine individuality. It is not proper to say "one person" in speaking of the whole Godhead any more than it would be proper to speak of the whole body of Christ as one person when we know it is made up of millions of individuals. It is proper to speak of " one person" if we refer to one single person of the three that constitute the Trinity, just as it is proper to speak of single persons making the body of Christ. All three are God and Lord, and each one could be called God or Lord.
 
Thread starter #92
To be literally honest with all Scripture, the rule to follow is the same as when we speak of any three men we might have in mind. Where only ONE person of the Godhead is plainly referred to in a particular passage, as in Gen. 32:24-32, only ONE person should be understood ; where TWO persons are referred to, and clearly seen and the language is clear that TWO persons are referred to as in Gen. 19:24; Dan. 7:9-14; Acts 7:56-59, then TWO persons should be understood ; and where THREE persons are clearly spoken about and where the language is clear that THREE persons are referred to, in Matt. 3:16 ,17; 28:19; 1 John 5:7, 8; Rev. 1:4-6; 4:2-5; 5:1, 6, 7, then THREE distinct persons should be understood. common honesty demands that we accept ONE, TWO, and THREE separate and distinct persons wherever they are seen with the eyes and referred to in plain human language by the first, second, and third personal pronouns.
Nothing but confusion will result from being dishonest with the Bible. If these facts are stated in the Bible and the other theories are not, then which would be the more sensible thing to believe. If you decide to believe the simplicity of the Bible, the subject will be very simple to understand, but if you accept the incomprehensible theories of men, the subject will be incomprehensible.
 
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Thread starter #93
The Father is called "God" ( 1 Cor. 8:6 ); the Son is called " God" ( Isa. 9:6; Heb. 1:8; John 20:28 ); and the Holy Spirit is called " God " ( Acts 5:3, 4 ); so all three persons of the Godhead are divine and can be spoken of individually as " God " and collectively as " one God " in the sense of unity. Each one is called " Lord " and collectively all three can be called " one Lord " in the sense of unity. The Father and Son are both called " Lord " and " God " in the same passages; yet they are clearly distinguished as two separate persons (Heb. 1:8, 9; Ps. 110:1; Gen. 19:24; 1 Cor. 11:3 ). any family as individuals or collectively could be called by the family name; so it is with the Godhead. All three persons in the Deity are Divine, God, Lord.
To sum it up, we can scripturally say that everything that could be spoken collectively of God could be spoken of each person in the Godhead as an individual, but there are certain things that are said of each individual person of the Deity as to position, office, and work that could not be spoken of the other members of the Godhead. The Father only is the Father and the head of Christ ( 1 Cor. 11:3 ); the Son only was the begotten of the Father ( 2 John 3 ); and only the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son ( John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15; Acts 2:34 ).
There are many other facts of difference between the three persons of the Godhead.
 
Both preachers and writers, almost without exception, make God quite incomprehensible and beyond human reason; yet they can preach big sermons and write big books about the subject they know very little about, and which they claim no man can know the truth about. They seem to think that the best way to magnify God is to make Him a big mystery. This is one of the greatest errors of the Christian church of today.

There is no reasonable excuse for this ignorance of God, or for such a conception of Him, for in the Bible there are over 20,000 references about Him, stating in almost infinite detail what He is like, what he can do and cannot do, and what he has done and yet plans to do. We will thus magnify God best by believing and teaching everything the Bibles says about Him. We can have a comprehensive knowledge of God from these many references if we will but believe what they say, and stop making everything God says about Himself a lie.

Men have spiritualized and changed so many statements about God in Scripture that they have nullified the true meaning of the Bible revelation of Him. We have failed to get a true, sane, and simple knowledge of God in the past centuries by that method of interpretation; so why not change our tactics and believe for one time what the Bible says about Him and see if we will not have a better understanding of God? Why not believe what God says about Himself in the same literal sense in which we understand the same kind of language when it is used of anyone else? Why not believe that God means what He says about Himself? If God did not mean what He said of Himself, then, why did He say such things? Why should it be the unpardonable sin to believe the Bible literally on this subject, as we believe the Bible on other subjects? To believe literal what God said of Himself certainly does make better sense. It certainly will give us a better and more common-sense conception of God.

We have all been taught that God cannot be comprehended, and all the books on Bible doctrine make the subject of God vague, and beyond the reach of all sane men. Such books are good in explaining away what the Bible says of God; so for once we shall lay aside all such foolishness and take a stand with what the Bible does plainly say. Such action certainly cannot make the subject any more mysterious. We cannot be wrong if we simply believe what God reveals about Himself. Since we know how to understand the Bible literally. We shall be wise in following this practice with every subject in the Bible and not with just a few that we choose.

Man can understand all about the Lord's Supper, baptism, or any other subject from just a few passages, but when it comes to the subject of God in many thousands of passages they cannot understand the subject at all.
Very, very well said.

This is one of the greatest errors of the Christian church of today.
Yes it is. People don't know God, but they have made a science of knowing about him and another science about knowing about that science.

In the OT God literally lived with his people. Then he came and lived in human form among the people. Then he gave us the HS to live in us. He is a living spirit just as real as you and me who listens, but also speaks back to us through our hearts.

In many ways the Church has become like the Pharisees of old, elevating scripture over God. In each and every instance that this has happened, the more scripture was magnified, the more God was lost. The Pharisees did it to the point they didn't see him in their very midst. The Catholic Church did it and lost him. The present day Protestant Church has done it and lost the Person in "Personal Savior". Almost ALL have forgot (if they were ever taught in the first place) that he is living and active and very capable of being interacted with just as one would another person. God is a person in every sense of the word. He thinks, wills, acts, communicates, and in the form of Jesus Christ has(NOT, HAD) a body. This shouldn't be hard to understand. We have a spirit and a body. God has a spirit and a body we know as Christ. Simple? Simple. A lot more I could say, but won't. The important thing remains and is that God is alive and knowable to anyone just as you can know any person. He even has a Book written about him, but the book is only ABOUT him and while it's totally true, it isn't him, no more than a book about me is me.
 
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I agree completely. Regarding the OP, if someone doesn't know God, it's the individuals fault. Romans 1 makes this explicitly clear.
What a difference a few years make huh? I just found my mirror. This was my reply to this:

Miguel Cervantes said:
These preacher, these authors have done no injustice by anyone. There is a plethora of scripture that reinforce what they are preaching / writing. To dare "humanize" God may be where the injustice lies.
two years ago.

As I read Miquel's post today I completely disagreed with it. Then I came across my reply. WOW!!!!! SemperFiHypocrite meet SemperFiPharisee.

"What's the explanation?" is the obvious question. Well, in short, meeting and knowing God instead of knowing about him moved me from a high horse to a highchair.
 
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Thread starter #96
According to all the above points a spirit is far different from what we have been taught. A spirit being can and does have a real, material, and tangible spirit form, shape, and size, with bodily parts, soul passions, and spirit faculties. Their material bodies are of spiritual substance and are just as real as human bodies.
Even human bodies after the resurrection will be able to go through material substance as did Jesus after His resurrection. He had a flesh-and bone body ( Luke 24:39 ) and yet in its changed, spiritualized, glorified state human beings, then it can be seen how God, angels, and other spirit beings can have bodies of material spiritual substance that are just as real as glorified human bodies that are spiritualized.

" workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth " ( 2 Tim. 2:15 ).
 
Thread starter #97
God has a spirit body with bodily parts like man. This is proved by hundreds of plain Scriptures that do not need interpretation. All we can do is either deny what the Bible says or believe it. If we are not going to believe, then be honest and say say we are unbelievers in the Bible. It does not make sense to pretend to believe the Bible and then refuse to believe it except in a few things that we have been taught to believe. If we have not been taught to believe the Bible, we can make up our own minds now to become full believers in all things that are plainly written in Scripture. If we do not, God will hold us accountable in the day of judgment. What does it matter if some preachers and teachers do not believe the simplicity of the Bible? We can. You can read for yourself each passage and see if these facts are not plainly written in your own Bible . The Bible plainly says that.
 
Thread starter #98
God is a person who is spirit, infinite, eternal, immutable, self-existent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, invisible, prefect, impartial, immortal, absolutely holy and just, full of knowledge and wisdom, in whom all things have their source, support and end. God is known in Scripture by over two hundred names. He is described as being like any other person as to having a body, soul, and spirit ( Job 13:8; Heb. 1:3; Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-7 ). He is a Spirit Being with a body ( Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5, 6-9-19; Exodus 24:11; Gen. 18; 32:24-32; Ezek. 1:26-28; Acts 7:54-59; Rev. 4:2-4; 5:1, 5-7; 22:4, 5 ); shape ( John 5:37 ); Form ( Phil. 2:5-7, same Greek word as in Mark 16:12, which refers to bodily form ); and an image and likeness of a man ( Gen. 1:26; 9:6; Ezek. 1:26-28; 1 Cor. 11:7; Jas. 3:9; Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5, 6 ). He has back parts; so must have front parts ( Exodus 33:23 ). He has a heart ( Gen. 6:6; 8:21 ); hands and fingers ( Exodus 31:18; Ps. 8:3-6; Rev. 5:6, 7 ); nostrils ( Ps. 18:8, 15 ); mouth ( Num. 12:8 ); lips and tongue ( Isa. 30:27 ); feet ( Ezek. 1:27; Exodus 24:10 ); eyes eyelids, sight ( Ps. 11:4; 18:24; 33:18 ); voice ( Ps. 29; Rev. 10:3, 4; Gen. 1 ); breath ( Gen. 2:7 ); ears ( Ps. 18:6 ); countenance ( Ps. 11:7 ); hair, head, face, arms ( Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-19; Rev. 5:1, 6, 7; 22:4-6 ); loins ( Ezek. 1:26-28; 8:1-4 ); bodily presence ( Gen. 3:8; 18:1-22; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7; Ex. 24:10, 11 ); and many other bodily parts as is required of Him to be a person with a body.
 
Thread starter #99
God is a person who is Spirit, infinite, eternal, immutable, self-existent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, invisible, prefect, impartial, immortal, absolutely holy and just, full of knowledge and wisdom, in whom all things have their source, support and end. God is known in Scripture by over two hundred names. He is described as being like any other person as to having a body, soul, and spirit ( Job 13:8; Heb. 1:3; Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-7 ). He is a Spirit Being with a body ( Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-6, 9-19; Exodus 24:11; Gen. 18; 32:24-32; Ezek. 1:26-28; Acts 7:54-59; Rev. 4:2-4; 5:1, 5-7; 22:4-5 ); shape ( John 5:37); form ( Phil. 2:5-7, same Greek word as in Mark 16:12, which refers to bodily form ); and an image and likeness of a man ( Gen. 1:26; 9:6; Ezek. 1:26-28; 1 Cor. 11:7; Jas. 3:9; Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-6). He has back parts; so must have front parts ( Exodus 33:23 ). He has a heart ( Gen. 6:6; 8:21 ); hands and fingers ( Exodus 31:18; Ps. 8:3-6; Rev. 5:1, 6-7 ); nostrils ( Ps. 18:8, 15 ); mouth ( Num. 12:8 ); lips and tongue ( Isa. 30:27 ); feet ( Ezek. 1:27; Exodus 24: 10 ); eyes, eyelids, sight ( Ps. 11:4; 18:24; 33:18 ); voice ( Ps. 29; Rev. 10:3-4; Gen. 1 ); breath ( Gen. 2:7 ); ears ( Ps. 18:6 ); countenance ( Ps. 11:7 ); hair, head, face, arms ( Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-19; Rev. 5:1, 6-7; 22:4-6 ); lions ( Ezek. 1:26-28; 8:1-4 ); bodily presence ( Gen. 3:8; 18:1-22; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7; Ex. 24:10-11 ); and many other bodily parts as is required of Him to be a person with a body.
 
Thread starter #100
God's goes from place to place in a body like any one else ( Gen. 3:8; 11:5; 18:1-22, 33; 19:24; 32:24-32; 35:13; Zech. 14:5; Titus 2:13 ). He is omni-present, but not omni-body, that is, His presence can be felt everywhere but His body cannot. He wears clothes ( Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-19 ); eats ( Gen. 18:1-22; Exodus 24:11 ); rests, not because he gets tired, but because he ceases activity or completes a work 9Gen. 2:1-4; Heb. 4:4 ); dwells in a mansion and in a city located on a material planet called Heaven ( John 14:1-3; Heb. 11:10-16; 13:14; Rev. 3:12; 21:1-27 ); sits on a throne ( Isa. 6; Rev. 4:1-5; 22:3-5 ); walks ( Gen. 3:8; 18:1-22, 33 ); rides upon cherubs, the wind, clouds, and chariots drawn by cherubims (Ps. 18:10; 68:17; 104:2; Ezek. 1:1-28 ); and does do and can do anything that any other person can do bodily that is right and good.
 
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