Truth About God

Thread starter #101
In the first two chapters of Genesis alone there are nearly 200 separate personal acts of God in creating, planting, speaking, working, seeing, blessing, commanding. He has eaten with men, as many as seventy-four at a time, who saw Him with their natural eyes and conversed with Him as literally as other persons at banquets ( Gen. 18:1-22; Exodus 24:9-13 ). He has wrestled bodily with man ( Gen. 32:24-32 ). He has written laws with His own finger while men looked on with the natural eyes ( Exodus 34:1-7, 27-28 ). He has revealed Himself in so many different ways, proving to men that He has a body with bodily parts like man, that only rebels and unbelievers will reject such obviously literal manifestations and revelations of Deity. If you want to make Him a liar concerning all these things, that is your responsibility; but why not believe them?
Not one passage has ever been given by men to prove that God is intangible, immaterial, without body, parts, and passions except John 4:24, "God is Spirit," and this certainly does not teach that He is without body. Men are satisfied to remain in ignorance of what spirit consists of, or what spirit bodies are like. Spirit bodies must consist of material and bodily form in order to appear to men and make contact with them bodily as we have seen that spirit beings do. Spiritual substance is as real as natural substance, except that it is of a higher type of matter and is governed by higher laws.
 
Thread starter #102
Paul speaks of the human flesh-and-bone bodies in the resurrection as being "spiritual" ( 1 Cor. 15:42-44 ), and "like unto his glorious body" ( Luke 24:39; Phil. 3:20, 21); so if human bodies that become spiritualized are still material and tangible, then certainly God and other spirits can have bodies just as real and still be spirit beings. After all, John 4:24 is a mere statement of fact--that God is a Spirit--but it does not define and analyze a spirit. Bible writers that claim to have seen God with there eyes told either a lie or the truth. We cannot believe them and modern Bible teachers who contend that no man has ever seen God with the eyes. both cannot be right, for they contradict each other.
One argument of modern scholars is that God is "light" and "love" and that you cannot see these qualities, you can only feel them. But we reply , this does not do away with the realities of God's body any more than the statements that men are "salt" and "light" does away with the bodies of men ( Matt. 5:13-16 ).
Another argument they use is that God cannot be comprehended by the sense, but by the soul; and that He is above sensuous perceptions. If this is true then God cannot be comprehended by the soul, for the soul is the seat of the affections, emotions, and desires, or the senses. Then no man can love God, have any affection for God, desire God, be emotional at all in knowing God or feel God in any sense. No statement in Scripture supports such a theory. But his senses man can enjoy, feel, see, touch, hear, and otherwise experience God, and it takes the senses to do any one of these things. Men have seen, heard, touched, and otherwise experienced God ALL Israel heard God ( Deut. 5:24 ); Jacob wrestled with God, so had to touch Him ( Gen. 32:24-32 ); and as seen above, men have seen God with the eyes.
 
I guess the question is "if we can become a spirit body, why can't God become a spirit body?" If we are to eventually become as he is?
You're asking as if the spirt man and God as spirit is a process?
God is Spirit, done.
New birth, redemption ... man becomes one spirit with God, done by a one time work.

Jesus: Hey Thomas, Saul/Paul, Peter ... if you have seen me in the body you have seen the Father.

We can't boast in our one-ness in the Spirit with God, only enjoy the fruit of this, relationally, with Him and in Him.

1 Cor. 16:17 But the one united with the Lord is one spirit with him.

emphasis mine
 
Thread starter #105
The reason we do not comprehend God more than we do by the sense is that He is bodily too far from us. When the time comes all men will see God and be in His bodily presence, as stated in Rev. 7:9-17; 14:1-5; 21:3; 22:4-6, man will be able to see, hear, smell, touch, and otherwise comprehend God by the same sense we use in connection with the bodily presence of others.
 
The reason we do not comprehend God more than we do by the sense is that He is bodily too far from us. When the time comes all men will see God and be in His bodily presence, as stated in Rev. 7:9-17; 14:1-5; 21:3; 22:4-6, man will be able to see, hear, smell, touch, and otherwise comprehend God by the same sense we use in connection with the bodily presence of others.
Yes, one day we will bodily see Him, but the above is like saying we must continue to know Christ after the flesh.

2 Corinthians 5:16-17
16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

We're all envious of Adam walking with God in the cool of the day, yet how much better to know Christ IN you - the hope of glory? A free-gifted spiritual union which each believer has is something even greater than what Adam had.

God has made this relational in the deepest way imaginable, yet many in the church are overcome with clinging to His robes, or worse, pulling Him down from far away heaven when 'our worship is just right', as if He didn't intend to make the human heart His home at all.

And still, we are now seated with Christ in heaven ...
Eph. 2:6 AMP:
And He raised us up together with Him [when we believed], and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, [because we are] in Christ Jesus.
 
You're asking as if the spirt man and God as spirit is a process?
God is Spirit, done.
New birth, redemption ... man becomes one spirit with God, done by a one time work.

Jesus: Hey Thomas, Saul/Paul, Peter ... if you have seen me in the body you have seen the Father.

We can't boast in our one-ness in the Spirit with God, only enjoy the fruit of this, relationally, with Him and in Him.

1 Cor. 16:17 But the one united with the Lord is one spirit with him.

emphasis mine
I think me using "become" was wrong. That would make it a process.
 
The reason we do not comprehend God more than we do by the sense is that He is bodily too far from us. When the time comes all men will see God and be in His bodily presence, as stated in Rev. 7:9-17; 14:1-5; 21:3; 22:4-6, man will be able to see, hear, smell, touch, and otherwise comprehend God by the same sense we use in connection with the bodily presence of others.
And where do we wait to receive these spirit bodies to connect with the others and God. It does seem like if we are all gonna experience Jesus in this way, then we'd also experience God in this way as well.
Unless the only way we see God and experience God is through Jesus. I don't believe that's the case but many folks do. They don't think we'll see, hear, and touch God like we will be able to with Jesus.
 
Yes, one day we will bodily see Him, but the above is like saying we must continue to know Christ after the flesh.

2 Corinthians 5:16-17
16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

We're all envious of Adam walking with God in the cool of the day, yet how much better to know Christ IN you - the hope of glory? A free-gifted spiritual union which each believer has is something even greater than what Adam had.

God has made this relational in the deepest way imaginable, yet many in the church are overcome with clinging to His robes, or worse, pulling Him down from far away heaven when 'our worship is just right', as if He didn't intend to make the human heart His home at all.

And still, we are now seated with Christ in heaven ...
Eph. 2:6 AMP:
And He raised us up together with Him [when we believed], and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, [because we are] in Christ Jesus.
Do you think us seeing the throne with God and Jesus at his right is all metaphorically having already been achieved?
 
Do you think us seeing the throne with God and Jesus at his right is all metaphorically having already been achieved?
It is a real, relational location of union, not to be ashamed of speaking, that we can be thankful for, even if in this life we "see thru a glass darkly".
 

Israel

Senior Member
Spiritual substance is as real as natural substance, except that it is of a higher type of matter and is governed by higher laws.
Though I do not disagree that spiritual substance is true substance (if that is what may be inferred from "higher type")...but "matter" as governed by higher laws? Making God somehow, Himself...governed?

Self control is everything law cannot accomplish.
 
Thread starter #112
Yes, one day we will bodily see Him, but the above is like saying we must continue to know Christ after the flesh.

2 Corinthians 5:16-17
16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

We're all envious of Adam walking with God in the cool of the day, yet how much better to know Christ IN you - the hope of glory? A free-gifted spiritual union which each believer has is something even greater than what Adam had.

God has made this relational in the deepest way imaginable, yet many in the church are overcome with clinging to His robes, or worse, pulling Him down from far away heaven when 'our worship is just right', as if He didn't intend to make the human heart His home at all.

And still, we are now seated with Christ in heaven ...
Eph. 2:6 AMP:
And He raised us up together with Him [when we believed], and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, [because we are] in Christ Jesus.
2 Cor. 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: This means, We trust no man's flesh. We do not even recognize Christ after the flesh ( v 16 ).

2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Therefore if any man be: this means therefore , in view of the fact that we do not know any man after the flesh, not even Christ, it is vain for any man to profess relationship with Christ according to the flesh, while he is unchanged in heart and life and dead in trespasses and sins.

in Christ he is a new creature: this means. It brings one into Christ ( see doctrine of interpenetration Luke 22:3).
One is a new creature
Old things are passed away, Gr. for old is archaios, ancient, original, old. such things are no more in one
All things are new, the life is just the opposite of the old life

old things are passed away; behold all things are become new:
Two Kinds of Things Pass Away:

(1). The Spirit, nature, and power of sin the old man, which is nothing more nor less than the spirit, nature, and power of the devil working in men of disobedience ( Jn. 8:44; Eph. 2:2; 2 Cor. 4:4; 1 Jn. 3:8; 5:18 )

This Is What The Bible Calls:
The old man ( Rom. 6:6; Eph. 4:22; Col. 3:9 )
Sin ( Jn. 1:29; 8:34; Rom. 6:4-8:2)
The body of sin (Rom. 6:6 )
The power of Satan ( Acts 26:18 )
The body of this death (Rom. 7:24 )
The lusts of the flesh ( Eph. 2:3 )
The lusts of the eyes ( 1 Jn. 2:15-17 )
The pride of life ( 1 Jn. 2:15-17 )
The works of the flesh ( Gal. 5:19 )
The world ( 1 Jn. 2:15-17; Jas. 4:4 )
Vile affections ( Rom. 1:26, 29 )
The lusts of the mind ( Eph. 2:3 )
The lusts of sin ( Rom. 6:11, 12 )
The motions of sin ( Rom. 7:5 )
The law of sin and death ( Rom. 7:7-8:2 )
The carnal mind ( Rom. 8:1-13 )
The god of this world ( 2 Cor. 4:4 )
Spiritual wickedness in high places. . . rulers of darkness ( Eph. 6:12 )
The lusts of your father ( Jn. 8:44 )
Sin that dwells in me ( Rom. 7:17 )
The course of this world ( Eph. 2:2 )
The body of the sins of the flesh ( Col. 2:11; Gal. 5:24; Rom. 8)

(2). Outward sin or transgression of the law ( 1 Jn. 3:4; Rom. 4:15; Jas. 1:13-15). The outward acts are listed in Mk. 7:19-21; Rom. 1:18-32; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; Gal. 5:19-21; Col. 3:5-10 ).

Both outward and inward sin must pass away or one cannot claim to be in Christ.
The theory that only outward transgressions are forgiven and one is still under control of the old man, the devil, is one of the most erroneous doctrines in Christendom ( 2 Cor. 5:17, 18; Eph. 4:24; 1 Jn. 5:18; Rom. 6:6-23; 8:1-13 ).
 
2 Cor. 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: This means, We trust no man's flesh. We do not even recognize Christ after the flesh ( v 16 ).

2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Therefore if any man be: this means therefore , in view of the fact that we do not know any man after the flesh, not even Christ, it is vain for any man to profess relationship with Christ according to the flesh, while he is unchanged in heart and life and dead in trespasses and sins.

in Christ he is a new creature: this means. It brings one into Christ ( see doctrine of interpenetration Luke 22:3).
One is a new creature
Old things are passed away, Gr. for old is archaios, ancient, original, old. such things are no more in one
All things are new, the life is just the opposite of the old life

old things are passed away; behold all things are become new:
Two Kinds of Things Pass Away:

(1). The Spirit, nature, and power of sin the old man, which is nothing more nor less than the spirit, nature, and power of the devil working in men of disobedience ( Jn. 8:44; Eph. 2:2; 2 Cor. 4:4; 1 Jn. 3:8; 5:18 )

This Is What The Bible Calls:
The old man ( Rom. 6:6; Eph. 4:22; Col. 3:9 )
Sin ( Jn. 1:29; 8:34; Rom. 6:4-8:2)
The body of sin (Rom. 6:6 )
The power of Satan ( Acts 26:18 )
The body of this death (Rom. 7:24 )
The lusts of the flesh ( Eph. 2:3 )
The lusts of the eyes ( 1 Jn. 2:15-17 )
The pride of life ( 1 Jn. 2:15-17 )
The works of the flesh ( Gal. 5:19 )
The world ( 1 Jn. 2:15-17; Jas. 4:4 )
Vile affections ( Rom. 1:26, 29 )
The lusts of the mind ( Eph. 2:3 )
The lusts of sin ( Rom. 6:11, 12 )
The motions of sin ( Rom. 7:5 )
The law of sin and death ( Rom. 7:7-8:2 )
The carnal mind ( Rom. 8:1-13 )
The god of this world ( 2 Cor. 4:4 )
Spiritual wickedness in high places. . . rulers of darkness ( Eph. 6:12 )
The lusts of your father ( Jn. 8:44 )
Sin that dwells in me ( Rom. 7:17 )
The course of this world ( Eph. 2:2 )
The body of the sins of the flesh ( Col. 2:11; Gal. 5:24; Rom. 8)

(2). Outward sin or transgression of the law ( 1 Jn. 3:4; Rom. 4:15; Jas. 1:13-15). The outward acts are listed in Mk. 7:19-21; Rom. 1:18-32; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; Gal. 5:19-21; Col. 3:5-10 ).

Both outward and inward sin must pass away or one cannot claim to be in Christ.
The theory that only outward transgressions are forgiven and one is still under control of the old man, the devil, is one of the most erroneous doctrines in Christendom ( 2 Cor. 5:17, 18; Eph. 4:24; 1 Jn. 5:18; Rom. 6:6-23; 8:1-13 ).
What are inward transgressions vs outward? Is it like hate and lust being inward and stealing and fornication are outward sins?
I would think all sins are forgiven. What I don't get is when a man is full of inward sins and judges the man that is full of outward sins.

Romans 8:6
The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.
Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
 
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Thread starter #114
It may be objected that these facts do not harmonize with Jn. 1:18, "No man hath seen God at any time," But they are in prefect harmony. The Greek word for "seen" here means to comprehend fully, or to understand fully, with the mind, as well as to look upon with the eyes. Our English word "seen" means the same thing; so if the proper meaning of the word "seen" is understood in Jn. 1:18, that will harmonize with the many passages in which men saw God with the eyes, there will be prefect harmony. no statement ever says men cannot now comprehend God, since the complete New Testament revelation of Him by Christ and others, Jesus said, "He that hath seen ( fully comprehended ) me hath seen ( comprehended ) the Father" ( John. 14:1-11 ). Men now can understand God.
 
It may be objected that these facts do not harmonize with Jn. 1:18, "No man hath seen God at any time," But they are in prefect harmony. The Greek word for "seen" here means to comprehend fully, or to understand fully, with the mind, as well as to look upon with the eyes. Our English word "seen" means the same thing; so if the proper meaning of the word "seen" is understood in Jn. 1:18, that will harmonize with the many passages in which men saw God with the eyes, there will be prefect harmony. no statement ever says men cannot now comprehend God, since the complete New Testament revelation of Him by Christ and others, Jesus said, "He that hath seen ( fully comprehended ) me hath seen ( comprehended ) the Father" ( John. 14:1-11 ). Men now can understand God.
Lexicon uses "perceive" as well for Greek "eōraken." No one has perceived God.
Jesus also said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. Jesus said that he came to do the will and work of his Father. He also said;
John 14:10
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Everything Jesus did was the Father working through him. Of course one should see the Father in His Son.
 
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It may be objected that these facts do not harmonize with Jn. 1:18, "No man hath seen God at any time," But they are in prefect harmony. The Greek word for "seen" here means to comprehend fully, or to understand fully, with the mind, as well as to look upon with the eyes. Our English word "seen" means the same thing; so if the proper meaning of the word "seen" is understood in Jn. 1:18, that will harmonize with the many passages in which men saw God with the eyes, there will be prefect harmony. no statement ever says men cannot now comprehend God, since the complete New Testament revelation of Him by Christ and others, Jesus said, "He that hath seen ( fully comprehended ) me hath seen ( comprehended ) the Father" ( John. 14:1-11 ). Men now can understand God.
How do we balance that we can know God but we can't fully comprehend God? That's why I think the truth of what we debate is halfway between it all. We've got to, at some point, find a balance and let the mystery be.
We are debating that we know God and that we don't know God at the same time. Yet if someone else perceives God to be different than we do, we say they are wrong.
 
Thread starter #117
What are inward transgressions vs outward? Is it like hate and lust being inward and stealing and fornication are outward sins?
I would think all sins are forgiven. What I don't get is when a man is full of inward sins and judges the man that is full of outward sins.

Romans 8:6
The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.
Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Rom.8:6 For to carnally minded is death: but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

For to be carnally minded is death: meaning same as "minding the things of the flesh" ( v 5 ).
but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. meaning same as minding the things of the spirit. ( v 5 ).
Rom. 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Here in verse 5 says do not mind the things of the flesh, saying to set affections on. Here; Rom.12:3, 16; 14:6; 15:5; Col.3:2. those who set their affections on the sins of the flesh of Gal. 5:19-21; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; Col. 3:5-10; Rom. 1:29-32; Mk. 7:19-21 will naturally fulfill them ( Jas. 1:13-15 ). Those who set their affections on the things of the Spirit of Gal. 5:21, 22; 1 Cor. 12:4-11; Col. 3:12-14 will naturally fulfill them and such will not commit sin.

Rom. 8:12 Therefore brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom. 8:13 For if we live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. saying,

So then, we own the flesh nothing. It has no more control of our lives. we must not live in the sins of the flesh or we shall die. But if we will put to death the practices of the flesh by the Spirit, we shall live ( v 12-13 Gal. 5:16-26; Col. 3:5-10 ).

Rom. 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. saying,

You Christians are not minding the things of the flesh, but of the Spirit, if the Spirit dwells in you. If you do not have the Spirit you do not belong to Christ ( v 9 ). If Christ is in you ( 2 Cor. 5:17-18 ), the body is dead to all sin, and the Spirit dominates your life as you live to all righteousness ( v 10). If this be true, you can expect quickening for your mortal bodies by the Spirit that dwells in you ( v 11 ).
 
Thread starter #118
How do we balance that we can know God but we can't fully comprehend God? That's why I think the truth of what we debate is halfway between it all. We've got to, at some point, find a balance and let the mystery be.
We are debating that we know God and that we don't know God at the same time. Yet if someone else perceives God to be different than we do, we say they are wrong.
It may also be objected that these facts do not harmonize with Exodus 33:20, " Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live," but again there is no contradiction. The whole passage must be considered, not only this one verse. Verse 11 says that "the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh with a friend." This proves that Moses saw God with the eyes. In verse 18 Moses wanted to see God in all His glory and requested, "Shew me thy glory," and it was this that could not be granted. Paul said that God dwells "in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see' ( 1 Tim. 6:16 ). God could not grant Moses the request to see Him in all of His glory, but He did premit Moses to see Him face to face out of His glory. Moses got to see God's glory as expressed in His "back parts" ( vs 18-23 ), but could not see God's glory as expressed in His countenance.
 
Moses got to see God's glory as expressed in His "back parts" ( vs 18-23 ), but could not see God's glory as expressed in His countenance.
Yet on this side of the cross we have His countenance on the inside. A gift greater than what Moses had, free, relational on a resurrection level beyond all our striving. Some believers and pastor-sermons refuse to discuss this, to the hurt of the body of Christ. We can easily deny the power of the gospel, Christ in you/us, and rather boast in our religious self sufficiency.
Beloved, religion has left the building.

Hebrews 3:4-6
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Religion has general two or three or more different definitions. Hebrews 3: 4-6... we still have a house.
 
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