Were People Saved & Marked for Heaven BEFORE Christ's Death and Resurrection?

Thread starter #1
The other day I was listening to a famous and popular conservative Baptist preacher talk about the death and resurrection of Christ as AN ABSOLUTE NECESSITY for salvation, and NOT just because God said so or because that's a rule he made, but that it HAD to be that way, it was always that way, it could never possibly be any other way. God CANNOT forgive sins just because HE is kind and generous or forgiving, but ONLY though his Son's sacrifice is it even possible. There ARE things God can't do, and one is to overlook sin, and sin can only be paid for one way.

So, that immediately had me wondering about the righteous prophets of the Old Testament, and even the contrite thief on the cross, who Jesus said would "this day" go to heaven with Him.
Or the paralyzed man that had to be lowered through the roof of a house to get close to Jesus. The Lord publicly announced his sins were forgiven and that he would be healed. Some of the witnesses thought to themselves, "how can this man forgive sin? Only God can do that!"

So, it doesn't seem "impossible" for a Holy God to forgive sin at times before Jesus came to Earth, or before Jesus died on the cross as payment for our sins.
 
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RegularJoe

Senior Member
Eternal Grace!
Ephesians 1:3-6
2 Timothy 1:9-10
Romans 8:28-30
“This people have I formed for myself; they shall show forth my praise.” Isaiah 43:21
And, sort of 'conversely,' in support of the above
(watching for where Scripture can be helpful in interpreting Scripture : ) ~
Romans 9:22-23 -
"What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known,
bore with great patience the objects of His wrath - prepared for destruction?
What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy,
whom He prepared in advance for glory....?"
(NIV-1985).
 

j_seph

Senior Member
What was payment for sin in the old testament?

Who was payment for sin in the New Testament?
 
The OP said "saved and marked" not "marked and saved." Meaning perhaps wanting to know how man was saved before the Cross more than being marked for salvation.
 
I think the way it worked was they were saved by having faith in the future of the coming Messiah and in God. Maybe they had to soul sleep until the resurrection.
The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world so the actual time of the event was gonna happen just as it was foretold and foreseen by God.
 
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By grace thru faith is the context in the Old and New.

Before the cross, before the law: Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.

After the cross and resurrection: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

Keep it simple Sparkey 😉
 
By grace thru faith is the context in the Old and New.

Before the cross, before the law: Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.

After the cross and resurrection: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

Keep it simple Sparkey 😉
While we can agree on your statement, to what have we agreed? The Tritheist, the Sabellian, and the Semi-Pelagian, can also agree with us. Which begs the question, "if we stop there, and teach the same and no more, have we taught the truth, or a half-truth?"

Ultimately, we can only supply the materials which we have received, and the building is by the Spirit.
 
Thread starter #13
By grace thru faith is the context in the Old and New.

Before the cross, before the law: Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.

After the cross and resurrection: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

Keep it simple Sparkey 😉

Nice quip but it doesn't address what I said in the original post about a well respected pastor saying that it has always been absolutely impossible to have salvation without personally knowing Jesus Christ as your savior and accepting that he *died* on the cross for your sins. Died = past tense.

So, how were people saved in the O.T. days, or while Jesus walked the earth, when these people had no idea that Jesus would die as a sinless perfect sacrifice, and would be raised again in three days?
 
Ephesians 2:12-13
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Was there a time that a whole group were without God? I think Paul is addressing the Gentiles but were the Jews not also separate from Christ just like the Gentiles?
The only difference being the Jews had God. They had hope. They had the covenants of the promise. But did they have Jesus?

It almost reads like the Jews had God but the Gentiles had to wait for the atoning blood of Christ to be grafted in after the wall of hostility came down.
 
Ephesians 2:17-19
He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,

This reads like it took Jesus who had always existed as Son to incarnate as man for the Gentiles to become citizens with God's people.
Not sure if any of this has anything to do with salvation before or after Jesus came, died, or resurrected.

Were they really without God and hope? If so then it did take the moment in time Son incarnate as man.
 

Madman

Senior Member
Nice quip but it doesn't address what I said in the original post about a well respected pastor saying that it has always been absolutely impossible to have salvation without personally knowing Jesus Christ as your savior and accepting that he *died* on the cross for your sins. Died = past tense.
According to the Church he is mistaken.

That makes absolutely no sense, that God would condemn a person who has never had the opportunity. Several Biblical references on this topic, start with 1 Peter 3:18-20.

Then find another preacher to listen too.
 
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While we can agree on your statement, to what have we agreed? The Tritheist, the Sabellian, and the Semi-Pelagian, can also agree with us. Which begs the question, "if we stop there, and teach the same and no more, have we taught the truth, or a half-truth?"

Ultimately, we can only supply the materials which we have received, and the building is by the Spirit.
Yes, growth by the Spirit, growing in the grace and knowledge of the Life of Christ within. I'd add that because His grace is relational we are growing up in the Spirit always.
Potter - Clay,
Master builder - building of God in the Spirit,
Vine - branches.

Trust,
Dependence,
walk,
repeat.

The author and perfector of our faith gets the glory. Selah
 
Nice quip but it doesn't address what I said in the original post about a well respected pastor saying that it has always been absolutely impossible to have salvation without personally knowing Jesus Christ as your savior and accepting that he *died* on the cross for your sins. Died = past tense.

So, how were people saved in the O.T. days, or while Jesus walked the earth, when these people had no idea that Jesus would die as a sinless perfect sacrifice, and would be raised again in three days?
Hebrews 11 lists just a handful of those in the OT that scripture testified of concerning faith. Where the bible talks about the children of God being more numerous than the sand on the seashore is additional reference to many more whom God redeemed. Job even spoke of God as he said, my redeemer liveth.

Heb 11:13
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things (Y)declare plainly that they seek a homeland.

Emphasis mine
 
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Having only second hand knowledge (not having heard).

The other day I was listening to a famous and popular conservative Baptist preacher talk about the death and resurrection of Christ as AN ABSOLUTE NECESSITY for salvation,
Yes eternally necessary, but no indication of temporal, or spiritual, revelation >>{being necessary]<<

and NOT just because God said so or because that's a rule he made, but that it HAD to be that way, it was always that way, it could never possibly be any other way. God CANNOT forgive sins just because HE is kind and generous or forgiving, but ONLY though his Son's sacrifice is it even possible. There ARE things God can't do, and one is to overlook sin, and sin can only be paid for one way.
His holiness requires that satisfaction be made ..>>[for sin]<<(propitiation) prior to association/relationship. Not an indication of knowledge or acceptance by the recipient of the gracious substitutionary gift of satisfaction >>[for transgressions]<<.

So, that immediately had me wondering about the righteous prophets of the Old Testament, and even the contrite thief on the cross, who Jesus said would "this day" go to heaven with Him.
Or the paralyzed man that had to be lowered through the roof of a house to get close to Jesus. The Lord publicly announced his sins were forgiven and that he would be healed. Some of the witnesses thought to themselves, "how can this man forgive sin? Only God can do that!"

So, it doesn't seem "impossible" for a Holy God to forgive sin at times before Jesus came to Earth, or before Jesus died on the cross as payment for our sins.
God reveals Himself to creation >>[through His economy]<< as it best satisfies His purpose.

In only three days that morphed into


Nice quip but it doesn't address what I said in the original post about a well respected pastor saying that it has always been absolutely impossible to have salvation without personally knowing Jesus Christ as your savior and accepting that he *died* on the cross for your sins. Died = past tense.
Personal knowledge required ... not in OP
Accept required ..... not in OP
Temporal action >>[or actualization]<< required ..... not in OP

So, how were people saved in the O.T. days, or while Jesus walked the earth, when these people had no idea that Jesus would die as a sinless perfect sacrifice, and would be raised again in three days?
The implication that temporal revelation is prerequisite to eternal action appears to be unsupported >>[especially in light of the opposite being indicated in Scripture]<<; and certainly absent from the OP.

As the guitar player said, in reference to the bango picker, in the introductory sequence of the movie Deliverance, "I'm lost".
 
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Yes, growth by the Spirit, growing in the grace and knowledge of the Life of Christ within. I'd add that because His grace is relational we are growing up in the Spirit always.
Potter - Clay,
Master builder - building of God in the Spirit,
Vine - branches.

Trust,
Dependence,
walk,
repeat.

The author and perfector of our faith gets the glory. Selah
Although "His grace is relational" has been used by many to insert the influence of men into the Providence of God, I take it from your following examples that your implication is not that.
 
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