Were People Saved & Marked for Heaven BEFORE Christ's Death and Resurrection?

Madman

Senior Member
Let's start with the Flood and the Ark. The Ark is Jesus and represents Salvation. Can you think of any more?
Mary = the ark of the New covenant
Mary= the new Eve
Jesus= the new Adam
Serpent on staff = prefigures Christ’s crucifixion
Passover lamb= Prefigures the sacrifice of Christ
 
I would agree, yes on "used what He foresaw to His advantage and therefore used it for His plan"

Ordaining it, no.

Allowing, yes.

I would have a hard time thinking He would ordain sin. I might be splitting hairs with terminology, but for me the difference in ordaining and allowing is I might watch my Son to see if he reaches for his phone to text while driving, and I might not stop him from picking it up. But I am not going to tell him to pick it up.



I can agree here.

The difference is I believe it was already part of God`s plan to reach the Gentiles and the "reaching" of them was not circumstantial upon Israel`s obedience / disobedience.

Maybe the timing of the reaching the Gentiles was? Take your statement; "Hey, I'll use what they did to allow Paul to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles." and change it to "Hey, I`ll use what they did to allow Paul to go ahead and preach the Gospel to the Gentiles while I have Israel in time out"

The Church has not replaced Israel and God is not finished with Israel. Due to pride and disobedience, Israel were set aside for a season.
for me the difference in ordaining and allowing is I might watch my Son to see if he reaches for his phone to text while driving, and I might not stop him from picking it up. But I am not going to tell him to pick it up.
That's because you are not God, and you do not know that the incoming text is from his girlfriend, the mother of your future grandchildren, who is about to end her life, and only he can prevent that.

In your hypothetical, God ordained it before creation. What you don't know, He does.
 
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Hypothetical:
You, the Cocktail Waitress, the Bartender, and the Bouncer allow your buddy, who is stumbling mumbling drunk, to get in his car and head home; resulting in two children loosing their young lives.

What is the difference between that and God allowing the same thing? Omniscience. God knows, in our hypothetical, that the resulting criminal charges will have the precedent setting outcome of jail time for all five involved parties. Further, the judgment, in the subsequent precedent setting civil suit, causes a major change in standard protocol for underwriting auto liability insurance throughout the nation making it impossible for anyone found guilty of DUI to ever legally drive again. Even further, the two children are bound for eternity praising God. As a result of these events 7000 lives are saved every year.

Privately (you, your God given conscience, and the Holy Spirit) with no possible social or peer pressure later, confront the question: does the distinction between allowed or ordained really matter. Those who see God as always just, always good, and always absolutely sovereign, lose nothing when they think of Him as ordaining all acts, temporal and eternal, because only their self image could be at risk, and for them the image of God is supreme. (Rm. 8:28-32).
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
That's because you are not God, and you do not know that the incoming text is from his girlfriend, the mother of your future grandchildren, who is about to end her life, and only he can prevent that.

In your hypothetical, God ordained it before creation.
Yes so God ordained the adultery of David and Bethsheba so He could be displeased.

God ordained the sin of man in Genesis so He could grieve.

God ordained the wickedness in Nineveh so He could repent of the evil He planned to do if they didn’t turn from their evil ways.

Makes sense to me.

I think God has enough knowledge to know in my hypothetical that if he’s going to ordain that, He already knows I’m going to take the phone away after he picks it up and prevent my son from reading a text while driving if I’m in the truck with him, so if He knows a text needs to get there, He is in enough control to put that text through to my phone.
 
Yes so God ordained the adultery of David and Bethsheba so He could be displeased.

God ordained the sin of man in Genesis so He could grieve.

God ordained the wickedness in Nineveh so He could repent of the evil He planned to do if they didn’t turn from their evil ways.

Makes sense to me.

I think God has enough knowledge to know in my hypothetical that if he’s going to ordain that, He already knows I’m going to take the phone away after he picks it up and prevent my son from reading a text while driving if I’m in the truck with him, so if He knows a text needs to get there, He is in enough control to put that text through to my phone.
Then your only choice is to to grab the phone as already foreseen. It matters not if God made you grab it or caused you to grab it. God still got the same results.
 
Yes so God ordained the adultery of David and Bethsheba so He could be displeased.

God ordained the sin of man in Genesis so He could grieve.

God ordained the wickedness in Nineveh so He could repent of the evil He planned to do if they didn’t turn from their evil ways.

Makes sense to me.

I think God has enough knowledge to know in my hypothetical that if he’s going to ordain that, He already knows I’m going to take the phone away after he picks it up and prevent my son from reading a text while driving if I’m in the truck with him, so if He knows a text needs to get there, He is in enough control to put that text through to my phone.
The Word was already with God. The world was made through the Word. The Word was slain before time even begin.
Was this due to predestination or foreknowledge? Does it really matter? God's plan for salvation(the Word) was already in place before Creation.
 
Yes so God ordained the adultery of David and Bethsheba so He could be displeased.

God ordained the sin of man in Genesis so He could grieve.

God ordained the wickedness in Nineveh so He could repent of the evil He planned to do if they didn’t turn from their evil ways.

Makes sense to me.

I think God has enough knowledge to know in my hypothetical that if he’s going to ordain that, He already knows I’m going to take the phone away after he picks it up and prevent my son from reading a text while driving if I’m in the truck with him, so if He knows a text needs to get there, He is in enough control to put that text through to my phone.
Honestly, in that last paragraph, I don't know how you could sound more like Bullet. The difference being that he knows where he is.

You really just don't get it; but I will continue to pray for you, even though I don't know that I qualify to have James 5:16 apply, or to whom, or how, "availeth much" is properly applied, it seems like a worthwhile effort.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
Honestly, in that last paragraph, I don't know how you could sound more like Bullet. The difference being that he knows where he is.

You really just don't get it; but I will continue to pray for you, even though I don't know that I qualify to have James 5:16 apply, or to whom, or how, "availeth much" is properly applied, it seems like a worthwhile effort.
And when all else fails, the self righteous judgmental rocks are thrown and 3rd parties are dragged into the equation lol .

Glad you got that finally off your chest? But, you can’t drag me into “keyboard warrior” mode. Have a nice day, Sir. :cheers:
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
Then your only choice is to to grab the phone as already foreseen. It matters not if God made you grab it or caused you to grab it. God still got the same results.
I don’t recall saying it mattered. It was just a hypothetical story to show the difference in how I am using ordaining and allowing. I might allow something in order to correct it, but I’m not going to order it so that I can correct it. If you want them both to mean the same thing, fine.

We fight a spiritual warfare. The flesh and spirit are contrary to one another. You can’t be in both at the same time. Unbelief leads to blinded eyes. We learned with Peter that doubt can cause you to take your eyes off Jesus. The Spirit revealed Jesus to Peter, a few verses later Peter gets in his flesh and Jesus calls him Satan and an offence. The predestined folks are above that, they think they can’t get in their flesh.

God cannot be tempted and he cannot tempt with evil - therefore God does not ordain evil.

He saw His creation was good, it was the deception of Satan that caused man to fail and sin entered the world. It grieved God and repented Him for creating man.

So, you’re telling me that even though scripture says God cannot tempt with evil that He did in fact ordain the temptation of Eve, or did He allow it?

And no, ordain and allow are not and never will be the same.
 
And when all else fails, the self righteous judgmental rocks are thrown and 3rd parties are dragged into the equation lol .

Glad you got that finally off your chest? But, you can’t drag me into “keyboard warrior” mode. Have a nice day, Sir. :cheers:
I freely acknowledge that your failure to respond to documented historical fact, your thinly vailed ad hominem attacks, your failure to respond to reasoned argument, your refusal to see, or even look, beyond carnal reciprocity, your obvious refusal to recognize that anything is beyond elementary conception, and insistence that God must be subject to His creation are frustrating, and that I have responded to those things, which is highly questionable in light of Scripture.
 
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And no, ordain and allow are not and never will be the same.
It doesn't matter, God causes it by allowing it. God uses it for predestination. Maybe some things he causes, some he allows, and some are just happenstance. I don't think he ever forms His plans off of our plans though. He may use us for His plans but again is that causing or allowing?

Concerning Peter I was drawn to this thread; Can a Man be saved or born again more than once.
While I don't agree with the OP, some think being "born again" is the same in ever sense as a physical birth, and much false teaching is based upon this assumption. It is a spiritual birth of a new creation.

Concerning Peter, he was told by Jesus that Satan wanted him and that he would deny Him. But when did Peter re-convert as the OP of that thread says?
"He went out immediately and repented and was converted again, fulfilling the prophecy of Jesus of his backsliding and conversion."

God held off Peter's second conversion until after Peter fulfilled prophesy. That's quite a manipulation of Peter's free will. But you want to see it as Peter causing it instead of God.
 
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What about God using trials and tribulations? Does he cause them or just allow them to be used as teaching aids to show us Christ and our faith? If God wants to put one on us, where in His arsenal of power does he find it? Does He grab one he foresaw so as to make Himself conform to the justice view of man?


And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.


And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
 
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Spotlite

Senior Member
If it doesn't matter, God causes it by allowing it. God uses it for predestination. Maybe some things he causes, some he allows, and some are just happenstance. I don't think he ever forms His plans of of our plans though.

Concerning Peter I was drawn to this thread; Can a Man be saved or born again more than once.
While I don't agree with the OP, some think being "born again" is the same in ever sense as a physical birth, and much false teaching is based upon this assumption. It is a spiritual birth of a new creation.

Concerning Peter, he was told by Jesus that Satan wanted him and that he would deny Him. But when did Peter re-convert as the OP of that thread says?
"He went out immediately and repented and was converted again, fulfilling the prophecy of Jesus of his backsliding and conversion."

God held off Peter's second conversion until after Peter fulfilled prophesy. That's quite a manipulation of Peter's free will. But you want to see it as Peter causing it instead of God.
k
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
I freely acknowledge that your failure to respond to documented historical fact, your thinly vailed ad hominem attacks, your failure to respond to reasoned argument, your refusal to see, or even look, beyond carnal reciprocity, your obvious refusal to recognize that anything is beyond elementary conception, and insistence that God must be subject to His creation are frustrating, and that I have responded to those things, which is highly questionable in light of Scripture.

and insistence that God must be subject to His creation are frustrating,

If THAT is what you perceive then you’re programmed to respond with predetermined answers. Just be careful, at times one might be talking about cutting pizza and you’re response will be about cutting grass.

I think I’ve made my position known more than enough that an elementary student would know God has all power and authority.

When this topic is debated there are a couple with all “their” wisdom they refuse to discuss the topic with maturity, they don’t have time for it. They prefer to throw the “judgmental rocks” and blow smoke at each other indulging in delight of one another’s cow trailing.

“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth,because thou hast hid these thingsfrom the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes”

Peace my friend, I won’t go into discussion of this with you any longer :cheers:
 
If THAT is what you perceive then you’re programmed to respond with predetermined answers. Just be careful, at times one might be talking about cutting pizza and you’re response will be about cutting grass.

I think I’ve made my position known more than enough that an elementary student would know God has all power and authority.

When this topic is debated there are a couple with all “their” wisdom they refuse to discuss the topic with maturity, they don’t have time for it. They prefer to throw the “judgmental rocks” and blow smoke at each other indulging in delight of one another’s cow trailing.

“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth,because thou hast hid these thingsfrom the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes”

Peace my friend, I won’t go into discussion of this with you any longer :cheers:
I think that's the case in a lot of these discussions. That or some turn into those types of discussions. We have to ask at some point are we trying to learn and teach or has pride taken over?

I don't see that happening any more in the predestination vs free will discussions that say a Trinity vs Oneness or a OSAS vs losing salvation thread though.
It appears to be more of a personalty trait of some individuals more than the personality of a whole group of believers.

At some point it does become my team winning and your team losing. Example; "we really show old Bill last night, he couldn't even respond." Not that we say that but do we think it? Pride perhaps?
 
And no, ordain and allow are not and never will be the same.
One thought I had this morning is exactly how different is God allowing than ordaining such as letting Peter deny Christ before He restored him.

1Peter 5:10
And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
 
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