Were People Saved & Marked for Heaven BEFORE Christ's Death and Resurrection?

[Artfuldodger]

Yes so God ordained the adultery of David and Bethsheba so He could be displeased.

God ordained the sin of man in Genesis so He could grieve.

God ordained the wickedness in Nineveh so He could repent of the evil He planned to do if they didn’t turn from their evil ways.

Makes sense to me.

I think God has enough knowledge to know in my hypothetical that if he’s going to ordain that, He already knows I’m going to take the phone away after he picks it up and prevent my son from reading a text while driving if I’m in the truck with him, so if He knows a text needs to get there, He is in enough control to put that text through to my phone.

The Word was already with God. The world was made through the Word. The Word was slain before time even begin.
Was this due to predestination or foreknowledge? Does it really matter? God's plan for salvation(the Word) was already in place before Creation.

 

[hummerpoo]

Yes so God ordained the adultery of David and Bethsheba so He could be displeased.

God ordained the sin of man in Genesis so He could grieve.

God ordained the wickedness in Nineveh so He could repent of the evil He planned to do if they didn’t turn from their evil ways.

Makes sense to me.

I think God has enough knowledge to know in my hypothetical that if he’s going to ordain that, He already knows I’m going to take the phone away after he picks it up and prevent my son from reading a text while driving if I’m in the truck with him, so if He knows a text needs to get there, He is in enough control to put that text through to my phone.

Honestly, in that last paragraph, I don't know how you could sound more like Bullet. The difference being that he knows where he is.

You really just don't get it; but I will continue to pray for you, even though I don't know that I qualify to have James 5:16 apply, or to whom, or how, "availeth much" is properly applied, it seems like a worthwhile effort.

 

[Artfuldodger]

He is in enough control to put that text through to my phone.

Oh no I missed that part. Would you say barely enough control? Just confused by your use of "enough."

 

[Spotlite]

Honestly, in that last paragraph, I don't know how you could sound more like Bullet. The difference being that he knows where he is.

You really just don't get it; but I will continue to pray for you, even though I don't know that I qualify to have James 5:16 apply, or to whom, or how, "availeth much" is properly applied, it seems like a worthwhile effort.

And when all else fails, the self righteous judgmental rocks are thrown and 3rd parties are dragged into the equation lol .

Glad you got that finally off your chest? But, you can’t drag me into “keyboard warrior” mode. Have a nice day, Sir.

 

[Spotlite]

Oh no I missed that part. Would you say barely enough control? Just confused by your use of "enough."

Meaning whatever it takes.

 

[Spotlite]

Then your only choice is to to grab the phone as already foreseen. It matters not if God made you grab it or caused you to grab it. God still got the same results.

I don’t recall saying it mattered. It was just a hypothetical story to show the difference in how I am using ordaining and allowing. I might allow something in order to correct it, but I’m not going to order it so that I can correct it. If you want them both to mean the same thing, fine.

We fight a spiritual warfare. The flesh and spirit are contrary to one another. You can’t be in both at the same time. Unbelief leads to blinded eyes. We learned with Peter that doubt can cause you to take your eyes off Jesus. The Spirit revealed Jesus to Peter, a few verses later Peter gets in his flesh and Jesus calls him Satan and an offence. The predestined folks are above that, they think they can’t get in their flesh.

God cannot be tempted and he cannot tempt with evil - therefore God does not ordain evil.

He saw His creation was good, it was the deception of Satan that caused man to fail and sin entered the world. It grieved God and repented Him for creating man.

So, you’re telling me that even though scripture says God cannot tempt with evil that He did in fact ordain the temptation of Eve, or did He allow it?

And no, ordain and allow are not and never will be the same.

 

[hummerpoo]

And when all else fails, the self righteous judgmental rocks are thrown and 3rd parties are dragged into the equation lol .

Glad you got that finally off your chest? But, you can’t drag me into “keyboard warrior” mode. Have a nice day, Sir.

I freely acknowledge that your failure to respond to documented historical fact, your thinly vailed ad hominem attacks, your failure to respond to reasoned argument, your refusal to see, or even look, beyond carnal reciprocity, your obvious refusal to recognize that anything is beyond elementary conception, and insistence that God must be subject to His creation are frustrating, and that I have responded to those things, which is highly questionable in light of Scripture.

 

[gemcgrew]

To allow or to permit is to cause.

Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth.

 

[hummerpoo]

To allow or to permit is to cause.

Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth.

Your brevity amazes me.
Lord, help me to that end.

 

[Artfuldodger]

And no, ordain and allow are not and never will be the same.

It doesn't matter, God causes it by allowing it. God uses it for predestination. Maybe some things he causes, some he allows, and some are just happenstance. I don't think he ever forms His plans off of our plans though. He may use us for His plans but again is that causing or allowing?

Concerning Peter I was drawn to this thread; Can a Man be saved or born again more than once.
While I don't agree with the OP, some think being "born again" is the same in ever sense as a physical birth, and much false teaching is based upon this assumption. It is a spiritual birth of a new creation.

Concerning Peter, he was told by Jesus that Satan wanted him and that he would deny Him. But when did Peter re-convert as the OP of that thread says?
"He went out immediately and repented and was converted again, fulfilling the prophecy of Jesus of his backsliding and conversion."

God held off Peter's second conversion until after Peter fulfilled prophesy. That's quite a manipulation of Peter's free will. But you want to see it as Peter causing it instead of God.

 

[Artfuldodger]

What about God using trials and tribulations? Does he cause them or just allow them to be used as teaching aids to show us Christ and our faith? If God wants to put one on us, where in His arsenal of power does he find it? Does He grab one he foresaw so as to make Himself conform to the justice view of man?


And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.


And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

 

[Spotlite]

If it doesn't matter, God causes it by allowing it. God uses it for predestination. Maybe some things he causes, some he allows, and some are just happenstance. I don't think he ever forms His plans of of our plans though.

Concerning Peter I was drawn to this thread; Can a Man be saved or born again more than once.
While I don't agree with the OP, some think being "born again" is the same in ever sense as a physical birth, and much false teaching is based upon this assumption. It is a spiritual birth of a new creation.

Concerning Peter, he was told by Jesus that Satan wanted him and that he would deny Him. But when did Peter re-convert as the OP of that thread says?
"He went out immediately and repented and was converted again, fulfilling the prophecy of Jesus of his backsliding and conversion."

God held off Peter's second conversion until after Peter fulfilled prophesy. That's quite a manipulation of Peter's free will. But you want to see it as Peter causing it instead of God.

k

 

[Spotlite]

I freely acknowledge that your failure to respond to documented historical fact, your thinly vailed ad hominem attacks, your failure to respond to reasoned argument, your refusal to see, or even look, beyond carnal reciprocity, your obvious refusal to recognize that anything is beyond elementary conception, and insistence that God must be subject to His creation are frustrating, and that I have responded to those things, which is highly questionable in light of Scripture.

and insistence that God must be subject to His creation are frustrating,

If THAT is what you perceive then you’re programmed to respond with predetermined answers. Just be careful, at times one might be talking about cutting pizza and you’re response will be about cutting grass.

I think I’ve made my position known more than enough that an elementary student would know God has all power and authority.

When this topic is debated there are a couple with all “their” wisdom they refuse to discuss the topic with maturity, they don’t have time for it. They prefer to throw the “judgmental rocks” and blow smoke at each other indulging in delight of one another’s cow trailing.

“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth,because thou hast hid these thingsfrom the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes”

Peace my friend, I won’t go into discussion of this with you any longer

 

[Artfuldodger]

If THAT is what you perceive then you’re programmed to respond with predetermined answers. Just be careful, at times one might be talking about cutting pizza and you’re response will be about cutting grass.

I think I’ve made my position known more than enough that an elementary student would know God has all power and authority.

When this topic is debated there are a couple with all “their” wisdom they refuse to discuss the topic with maturity, they don’t have time for it. They prefer to throw the “judgmental rocks” and blow smoke at each other indulging in delight of one another’s cow trailing.

“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth,because thou hast hid these thingsfrom the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes”

Peace my friend, I won’t go into discussion of this with you any longer

I think that's the case in a lot of these discussions. That or some turn into those types of discussions. We have to ask at some point are we trying to learn and teach or has pride taken over?

I don't see that happening any more in the predestination vs free will discussions that say a Trinity vs Oneness or a OSAS vs losing salvation thread though.
It appears to be more of a personalty trait of some individuals more than the personality of a whole group of believers.

At some point it does become my team winning and your team losing. Example; "we really show old Bill last night, he couldn't even respond." Not that we say that but do we think it? Pride perhaps?

 

[Artfuldodger]

And no, ordain and allow are not and never will be the same.

One thought I had this morning is exactly how different is God allowing than ordaining such as letting Peter deny Christ before He restored him.

1Peter 5:10
And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Then I got to thinking about all of our physical deaths. How is God just and fair if He knows we are gonna die in a terrible house fire or drown in our own lung fluids and only snatch some of those from death?

I do realize that it's just my human thoughts on justice. Why is that fair that people pray and some get to live while others die on the day they were appointed?
It's all related to God knowing yet still allowing more than causing. But the outcome is still the same and God is still just.

Using cars, children, and phones is not a good analogy nor can we come up with one that is. Why? Because we don't have foreknowledge to the point God does.
How many are suppose to die yet God intervenes using foreknowledge? Any of this type questioning is of no value when you really think about it.

Have you ever been in a hospital ICU waiting room where each hour or two they take another back for surgery. All the various family members are anxiously awaiting to see if God calls their family member home or decides to answer their prayers and change His mind. Happy people when they hear the good news, sad people when they hear the bad news. Yet it's really just news.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.

Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?

I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?

The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord;
he turns it wherever he will.

Then the Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?

And the Lord afflicted the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and he became sick.

Let those who suffer according to God’s will entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good.

The Lord kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up.

We really have no concept of what it's like to be God. No real feel for what is good nor evil in His eyes. No idea what or how he uses, allows, nor ordains other than what scripture tells us.
We do have an idea of how good and evil pertain to us but we can't paint God with that same brush. We can't paint God as not being just and not granting equality in anything he does.

 

[hummerpoo]

If THAT is what you perceive then you’re programmed to respond with predetermined answers.

So you do recognize God's sovereignty in an elementary way, although it doesn't apply to you.

Just be careful, at times one might be talking about cutting pizza and you’re response will be about cutting grass.

Although I don't know which of the 50 examples we are given in Ezekiel, or the hundreds given elsewhere, might best apply, I am fully confident that my perceptions, and yours, are being competently managed to the glory of God, and that's all that really matters.

I think I’ve made my position known more than enough that an elementary student would know God has all power and authority.

And, I am confident that those with eyes and ears recognize the
but, however, even though, and yet, etc. that have been applied to God's power and authority.

When this topic is debated there are a couple with all “their” wisdom they refuse to discuss the topic with maturity, they don’t have time for it.

And it has been demonstrated that eyes to see and ears to hear are required for fruitful communication.

 

[Spotlite]

One thought I had this morning is exactly how different is God allowing than ordaining such as letting Peter deny Christ before He restored him.

1Peter 5:10
And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

The main focus that gets lost - God cannot tempt with evil. Period.

Doubt leads to unbelief - unbelief is how this Gospel is hid.

Satan is the one going about seeking whom he may devour and has to have permission to attack you. The evil he wants to do, God has to say "you may".

Ultimately - did God create everything? Yes He did. But he doesn’t ordain sin, He allows Satan to attack you, that’s why you’re supposed to be sober minded.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Ordaining versus Allowing? This is really getting interesting.

Like God sending out lying spirits to deceive Ahab or Jesus speaking in parables to hide the truth from them, least they be converted and their sins forgiven.

Some believe the allowing thing because God becomes much more unjust if He ordains all events, and that all events that He ordains are ordained for the sole purpose of glorifying Himself.

"The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble"