When the Messiah returns...

Israel

Senior Member
Almost without exception any prophet's writings that are quoted in relation to the Messiah also contain warnings and castigation in regards to the general estate of those calling themselves children of Abraham.

Even the most cursory readings will find them rife with condemnation of practices and judgments to be visited if warnings are not heeded. And such often go far beyond mere misunderstandings, but to a frank exposure among the addressed to their love of having things in such manner.

There is no naivete nor apologies, feigned or otherwise, in these prophets by whom the abundance of sins addressed are either going to be even recognized nor remedied by their bold address. Most knew they were, in that sense speaking to the wind, Jonah being one of the very few to witness the effective fruiting in the discharge of his message...yet...oddly...not much liking it at all.

For the most part the things described here, of "suffering affliction and patience"

Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

Were more the experience.

The manifest display of "not getting it" as almost always accompanied by resistances, persecutions, derisions and death for the prophets are plainly recorded.

To advance, in the name of such prophets, that suddenly the greater mass of those calling themselves Abraham's children now "understand and receive all" to such particularity that upon such basis they are accorded the "better" interpreters of the words of such prophets...one should consider.

It is that pride of life Jesus Christ addressed when speaking to those who held this view "Had we lived in the days of our Fathers we would not have persecuted the prophets", Jesus had no accolades.

Nor does He, today.


What He does hold is mercy for those who believe the prophets, even the Chiefest among them, who have come to view their estate in a light that, even though they might prefer it cast upon "others", cannot deny they have found it shining upon themselves.

Yes, Lord...I am precisely that man who, when seeing the Shepherd smitten...runs first to all of his own for comfort in terror of the cross.

Such a man might know himself as such...in gratitude for its revealing as his entrance to see the mercy of Jesus Christ. To cowards...and liars.
 
Almost without exception any prophet's writings that are quoted in relation to the Messiah also contain warnings and castigation in regards to the general estate of those calling themselves children of Abraham.

Even the most cursory readings will find them rife with condemnation of practices and judgments to be visited if warnings are not heeded. And such often go far beyond mere misunderstandings, but to a frank exposure among the addressed to their love of having things in such manner.

There is no naivete nor apologies, feigned or otherwise, in these prophets by whom the abundance of sins addressed are either going to be even recognized nor remedied by their bold address. Most knew they were, in that sense speaking to the wind, Jonah being one of the very few to witness the effective fruiting in the discharge of his message...yet...oddly...not much liking it at all.

For the most part the things described here, of "suffering affliction and patience"

Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

Were more the experience.

The manifest display of "not getting it" as almost always accompanied by resistances, persecutions, derisions and death for the prophets are plainly recorded.

To advance, in the name of such prophets, that suddenly the greater mass of those calling themselves Abraham's children now "understand and receive all" to such particularity that upon such basis they are accorded the "better" interpreters of the words of such prophets...one should consider.

It is that pride of life Jesus Christ addressed when speaking to those who held this view "Had we lived in the days of our Fathers we would not have persecuted the prophets", Jesus had no accolades.

Nor does He, today.


What He does hold is mercy for those who believe the prophets, even the Chiefest among them, who have come to view their estate in a light that, even though they might prefer it cast upon "others", cannot deny they have found it shining upon themselves.

Yes, Lord...I am precisely that man who, when seeing the Shepherd smitten...runs first to all of his own for comfort in terror of the cross.

Such a man might know himself as such...in gratitude for its revealing as his entrance to see the mercy of Jesus Christ. To cowards...and liars.
So after all that and none of it is an apologetic attempt to explain why or why not OT scripture eliminates Jesus from being the Messiah...
I will ask you personally for a direct answer to a question which sticks to the topic and point at hand.
Then after this answer, You and I can go through God's word in the OT which specifically states what is required to be the Messiah and you can address them as we go. Okay?
I will just use the verses provided in the links that I have provided already.

Lets start with the first question

Israel, is Jesus a descendant of King David?
And if you say so how do you explain away the evidence below?

Jeremiah 23
הִנֵּ֨ה יָמִ֤ים בָּאִים֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה וַהֲקִמֹתִ֥י לְדָוִ֖ד צֶ֣מַח צַדִּ֑יק וּמָ֤לַךְ מֶ֙לֶךְ֙ וְהִשְׂכִּ֔יל וְעָשָׂ֛ה מִשְׁפָּ֥ט וּצְדָקָ֖ה בָּאָֽרֶץ׃ See, a time is coming—declares the LORD—when I will raise up a true branch of David’s line. He shall reign as king and shall prosper, and he shall do what is just and right in the land.


https://debeausoleil.com/is-jesus-a-son-of-david/
 
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gemcgrew

Senior Member
And if you say so how do you explain away the evidence below?

Jeremiah 23
הִנֵּ֨ה יָמִ֤ים בָּאִים֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה וַהֲקִמֹתִ֥י לְדָוִ֖ד צֶ֣מַח צַדִּ֑יק וּמָ֤לַךְ מֶ֙לֶךְ֙ וְהִשְׂכִּ֔יל וְעָשָׂ֛ה מִשְׁפָּ֥ט וּצְדָקָ֖ה בָּאָֽרֶץ׃ See, a time is coming—declares the LORD—when I will raise up a true branch of David’s line. He shall reign as king and shall prosper, and he shall do what is just and right in the land.
The evidence of that is here:

The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

Nothing else is required.
 
The evidence of that is here:

The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

Nothing else is required.
I understand that is what works for you and others. It doesn't explain why God's requirements do not matter over the words of some woman.
Which of God's words are wrong and do not count?
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
So after all that and none of it is an apologetic attempt to explain why or why not OT scripture eliminates Jesus from being the Messiah...
I will ask you personally for a direct answer to a question which sticks to the topic and point at hand.
Then after this answer, You and I can go through God's word in the OT which specifically states what is required to be the Messiah and you can address them as we go. Okay?
I will just use the verses provided in the links that I have provided already.

Lets start with the first question

Israel, is Jesus a descendant of King David?
And if you say so how do you explain away the evidence below?

Jeremiah 23
הִנֵּ֨ה יָמִ֤ים בָּאִים֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה וַהֲקִמֹתִ֥י לְדָוִ֖ד צֶ֣מַח צַדִּ֑יק וּמָ֤לַךְ מֶ֙לֶךְ֙ וְהִשְׂכִּ֔יל וְעָשָׂ֛ה מִשְׁפָּ֥ט וּצְדָקָ֖ה בָּאָֽרֶץ׃ See, a time is coming—declares the LORD—when I will raise up a true branch of David’s line. He shall reign as king and shall prosper, and he shall do what is just and right in the land.


https://debeausoleil.com/is-jesus-a-son-of-david/
I found this link to be lacking in substance. It focused on one main topic of Jesus's words "how then can he be the son of David'. I think it's clear that he is not arguing against being in David's lineage here???? Clear to me, but... nothing to base this on. . But rather, I speculate that he is referring to who is greater? But, I concede that I am only speculating.
 
I found this link to be lacking in substance. It focused on one main topic of Jesus's words "how then can he be the son of David'. I think it's clear that he is not arguing against being in David's lineage here???? Clear to me, but... nothing to base this on. . But rather, I speculate that he is referring to who is greater? But, I concede that I am only speculating.
I always appreciate your input, both your personal opinion and Apologetic talent.
 
I found this link to be lacking in substance. It focused on one main topic of Jesus's words "how then can he be the son of David'. I think it's clear that he is not arguing against being in David's lineage here???? Clear to me, but... nothing to base this on. . But rather, I speculate that he is referring to who is greater? But, I concede that I am only speculating.
What is the lineage from Jesus to David?
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
I found this link to be lacking in substance. It focused on one main topic of Jesus's words "how then can he be the son of David'. I think it's clear that he is not arguing against being in David's lineage here???? Clear to me, but... nothing to base this on. . But rather, I speculate that he is referring to who is greater? But, I concede that I am only speculating.
I think it's clear that he is not arguing against being in David's lineage here???? I speculate that he is referring to who is greater?
I’m no where finished as I’m getting a late start, but I’d agree here - at least agree in speculation.

If you consider everything physical and spiritual - David is a spiritual Son of God and Jesus is a Son of God.

I’ve traced the lineage from both Mary and Jesus back to David. I won’t speak now as I’d rather go back to my notes before I continue on that part - as in one study it was the Mothers “Jewish” and in another study the only way to pass on an inheritance if you didn’t have a son was by adoption. I want to be clear instead trying to remember all of that without my notes.
 
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I’m no where finished as I’m getting a late start, but I’d agree here - at least agree in speculation.

If you consider everything physical and spiritual - David is a spiritual Son of God and Jesus is a Son of God.

I’ve traced the lineage from both Mary and Jesus back to David. I won’t speak now as I’d rather go back to my notes before I continue on that part - as in one study it was the Mothers “Jewish” and in another study the only way pass on an inheritance if you didn’t have a son was by adoption. I want to be clear instead trying to remember all of that without my notes.
https://pykafamily.wordpress.com/20...as-no-lineage-to-king-david-and-king-salomon/
 
I’m no where finished as I’m getting a late start, but I’d agree here - at least agree in speculation.

If you consider everything physical and spiritual - David is a spiritual Son of God and Jesus is a Son of God.

I’ve traced the lineage from both Mary and Jesus back to David. I won’t speak now as I’d rather go back to my notes before I continue on that part - as in one study it was the Mothers “Jewish” and in another study the only way to pass on an inheritance if you didn’t have a son was by adoption. I want to be clear instead trying to remember all of that without my notes.
The mother's role in Judiasm is that if your Mother is Jewish you are a Jew.

Hebrew lineage is not recorded through the female. The bible does not state that it is.

If you want to use spiritual connections, then we are all on equal ground as Messiah candidates in that matter if God created everyone.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
The mother's role in Judiasm is that if your Mother is Jewish you are a Jew.

Hebrew lineage is not recorded through the female. The bible does not state that it is.

If you want to use spiritual connections, then we are all on equal ground as Messiah candidates in that matter if God created everyone.
One aspect - when Mary married Joseph; through her marriage with Joseph she enters his family and legally becomes, she and her son Jesus, a part of the House of David.

Another aspect, although the women’s names were not used for whatever reason, the lineage can be traced through a woman because obviously, she has parents, they have parents, etc. Just because customs didn’t do it, doesn’t mean it can’t be. And it’s the name of woman not documented, not that the lineage can’t be traced that way. But for arguments sake it was if for nothing else - “if your Mother is Jew you are a Jew”; Luke records Mary’s lineage.

Jesus can be traced through lineage, custom and spiritual back to the House of David.
 
One aspect - when Mary married Joseph; through her marriage with Joseph she enters his family and legally becomes, she and her son Jesus, a part of the House of David.

Another aspect, although the women’s names were not used for whatever reason, the lineage can be traced through a woman because obviously, she has parents, they have parents, etc. Just because customs didn’t do it, doesn’t mean it can’t be. And it’s the name of woman not documented, not that the lineage can’t be traced that way. But for arguments sake it was if for nothing else - “if your Mother is Jew you are a Jew”; Luke records Mary’s lineage.

Jesus can be traced through lineage, custom and spiritual back to the House of David.
Spotlite, the links that I provided address all of the possibilities, aspects, excuses, and trying to put square pegs into round holes ...
And they show exactly how and why Jesus, through Joseph AND Mary's lines DOES NOT FIT the Davidic line.
Please read the links.
They clearly show where along the lines that the claims to David himself fall apart.
 
From one of the links:

Jesus of Nazareth didn’t have this genealogy.He didn’t have a birth father from the Tribe of Judah in the line from King David and Solomon, not Jeconiah. He had a virgin birth according to Matthew and Luke. And even if he didn’t have virgin birth neither genealogy in Matthew 1 or Luke 3 can produce a King to be the Messiah. In Luke 3 the genealogy doesn’t go through Solomon as required and in Matthew 1 the genealogy is rejected because it goes though Jeconiah.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
Spotlite, the links that I provided address all of the possibilities, aspects, excuses, and trying to put square pegs into round holes ...
And they show exactly how and why Jesus, through Joseph AND Mary's lines DOES NOT FIT the Davidic line.
Please read the links.
They clearly show where along the lines that the claims to David himself fall apart.
I realize that. I would expect anything Judaism to be a Jesus as the Messiah advocate.

One thing still hinges - Joseph can be traced to David, when Mary married Joseph both her and her son becomes part of the House of David.

But yes, most definitely I will read all the links.
 
I realize that. I would expect anything Judaism to be a Jesus as the Messiah advocate.

One thing still hinges - Joseph can be traced to David, when Mary married Joseph both her and her son becomes part of the House of David.

But yes, most definitely I will read all the links.
The Jews are following the law and the Scripture.
Joseph is NOT Jesus's biological father. If Jesus IS Joseph's son, then he is not God's son. The links specifically explain why adoption does not work.
Joseph is not traced through Solomon even if Joseph was the biological father.
It just does not meet the qualifications.

From a link:
Messiah must be a direct descendant from David and Solomon through his human biological father. Jesus of Nazareth didn’t qualify, he had a virgin birth. Even if he didn’t have a virgin birth, the genealogy in Matthew chapter 1 goes through Jeconiah, whose line was disqualified from kingship as part of Elohim’s curse we can read in Jeremiah 22:30,36:30 and in Luke chapter 3 the genealogy doesn’t go through Solomon as required but his brother Nathan which we can read in 2. Samuel 7:12-14, 1. Chronicles 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6. Jesus of Nazareth is the most definitely not the Jewish Messiah.
 
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