Where Are The Dead

Pappy
I took some time to read Tje account I spoke of… and it was not literal…. But a vision of Moses and Elijah

In fact, note Jesus own words:

As they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.”

So not frozen, but a vision.. as Jesus would not contradict the scriptures he knew so well on the dead, the soul, and other biblical teachings.
hmm... Jesus, Peter, James and John all had the same vision at the same time, and then report it to the other disciples to be recorded as a factual happening in the gospels???? Strange.
 
Yea good point. However who was Jesus talking to? It was His faithful apostles.

The night before he was killed Jesus told the apostles he would soon leave them, but they should not be troubled, for he was going to prepare a place for them and he would come and take them to that place when it was ready for them.

so not immediate!

Does that mean ALL go to heaven based on this comment? No? Their are two groups of people heavenly class, earthly

heaven is an invite, not automatic

I think it is 1Cor where speaks of many righteous men of faith.. Moses etc…. “Yet they did not receive the promise” that is everlasting life in heaven. Those are the meek, and classified in Rev as the great croud that will come out of the Great Tribulation or resurrected

Those that are invited to heaven by Jesus, and God who wil serve as kings and priests…in gods kingdom over the millions on earth that are righteous, and ressurected.
Those in heaven have responsibilities, not singing and floating on cloud.
They are the bride class, and Jesus the groom.

Meek inherit the earth…. ps 37.
Revelation: “little flock” , heaven, “great croud” all on earth
When will those faithful apostles go to Heaven? Want they need a body like Jesus ascended to Heaven in? Right now this day, Jesus is in Heaven in his human, resurrected body, Right? Wouldn't it stand to reason that those apostles who go to Heaven will be in they same type of body Jesus is in, regardless of when they go? I mean he went to prepare houses for them.
 
Pappy
And you read Jesus own words that he said a vision….. and yet still don’t believe.

you r reading the Bible with a talking donkey, dead raised, sea parted, 10 plaques, story of Sampson, and u call Jesus words “strange”??

I think that your comment is a little strange

Not sure where to go from here if you cannot take Jesus at his word.
 
Art
Jesus is in heaven as a spirit, not his physical body.
Flesh n blood cannot inherit the kingdom.

The Bible says that Jesus “was put to death in the flesh but made alive [resurrected] in the spirit.”
1Pet 3:18, Acts 13:34, 1Cor 15:45, 2Cor 5:16

Jesus’ own words showed that he would not be resurrected with his flesh-and-blood body.

He said that he would give his “flesh in behalf of the life of the world,” as a ransom for mankind.John 6:51; Matt 20:28

If he had taken back his flesh when he was resurrected, he would have canceled that ransom sacrifice

After his resurrection, Jesus, Like angels in Lots day, assumed human form temporarily, just as angels had previously done.

As a spirit creature, though, he was able to appear and disappear suddenly: Luke 24:31, John 20:19,26

It appears that the fleshly bodies that he materialized were not identical from one appearance to the next.

So even Jesus’ close friends recognized him only by what he said or did. Luke 24:30-31,35, john 20:14-16;21:6-7
 
Pappy
And you read Jesus own words that he said a vision….. and yet still don’t believe.

you r reading the Bible with a talking donkey, dead raised, sea parted, 10 plaques, story of Sampson, and u call Jesus words “strange”??

I think that your comment is a little strange

Not sure where to go from here if you cannot take Jesus at his word.
I find lots of things strange in the Bible, especially when people try to stretch things to mean what they want.

the word that is translated vision here is horama... It literally means something that was gazed or seen. A spectacle, especially a supernatural spectacle. It is sometimes translated vision, but not always.

Horama comes from the word Horao which means to stare at something with your eyes wide open..

A vision? by all 4? Maybe.

A specific sighting experienced by all 4 at once, and seen by all 4 at once... much more likely
 
Art
Jesus is in heaven as a spirit, not his physical body.
Flesh n blood cannot inherit the kingdom.

The Bible says that Jesus “was put to death in the flesh but made alive [resurrected] in the spirit.”
1Pet 3:18, Acts 13:34, 1Cor 15:45, 2Cor 5:16

Jesus’ own words showed that he would not be resurrected with his flesh-and-blood body.

He said that he would give his “flesh in behalf of the life of the world,” as a ransom for mankind.John 6:51; Matt 20:28

If he had taken back his flesh when he was resurrected, he would have canceled that ransom sacrifice

After his resurrection, Jesus, Like angels in Lots day, assumed human form temporarily, just as angels had previously done.

As a spirit creature, though, he was able to appear and disappear suddenly: Luke 24:31, John 20:19,26

It appears that the fleshly bodies that he materialized were not identical from one appearance to the next.

So even Jesus’ close friends recognized him only by what he said or did. Luke 24:30-31,35, john 20:14-16;21:6-7
This is interesting considering what your belief is on the soul being a part of the flesh. Interesting in what and how you define death. If man does not rise physically as Jesus did, I don't see the point of Christ's death or man's resurrection. I understand the sacrifice part but God gave us His So for that. Jesus had to rise in the same body he died in or Scripture makes no sense whatever.
Physical resurrection and your definition of the soul and death makes no sense either in terms of eternal life. If one doesn't and can't gain the same life he lost, then it's not life. It goes against what you've been explaining. You been telling us that our eternal life on the new heaven(Earth) begins after our resurrection and that our bodies sleep only to become a future spirit.
If the whole concept of a resurrection is to become a spirit, that goes against you teaching us that we have no spirit that can go to a place after our physical death. To me that's more convoluted than the spirit of man leaving his body only to re-enter it upon his resurrection.
 
Art
Jesus is in heaven as a spirit, not his physical body.
Flesh n blood cannot inherit the kingdom.

The Bible says that Jesus “was put to death in the flesh but made alive [resurrected] in the spirit.”
1Pet 3:18, Acts 13:34, 1Cor 15:45, 2Cor 5:16

Jesus’ own words showed that he would not be resurrected with his flesh-and-blood body.

He said that he would give his “flesh in behalf of the life of the world,” as a ransom for mankind.John 6:51; Matt 20:28

If he had taken back his flesh when he was resurrected, he would have canceled that ransom sacrifice

After his resurrection, Jesus, Like angels in Lots day, assumed human form temporarily, just as angels had previously done.

As a spirit creature, though, he was able to appear and disappear suddenly: Luke 24:31, John 20:19,26

It appears that the fleshly bodies that he materialized were not identical from one appearance to the next.

So even Jesus’ close friends recognized him only by what he said or did. Luke 24:30-31,35, john 20:14-16;21:6-7
I was with you until you on humans staying dead until their resurrection because we are dead. The dead know nothing. The dead can't make plans, etc. But you lost me when you said after all of this waiting, we still only become spirits. Well if that's the case, I see no point in having to wait. A spirit is a spirit, not bound by death. Might as well go ahead and ascend spiritually some where.
 
I wonder if the early Church believed in soul sleep along the lines of this;
Tatian writes: "The soul is not in itself immortal... If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality. But, again, if it acquires the knowledge of God, it dies not, although for a time it be dissolved."

Then perhaps the belief changed over time to souls going straight to heaven or he!! or a resting place until the resurrection.

Then during the Reformation it shifted somewhat back to having to wait until the return of Jesus. "We'll work until Jesus comes" sort of belief.
I do think many of the Churches after the Reformation held that we'd be gathered home when Jesus comes and after the resurrection and judgement.

I think back in the day the fear was physical death. To them salvation was overcoming this death. It doesn't seem like they wanted to be spirits after death but wanted the same life they knew they had on earth. Salvation offered this through a resurrected body. I'm also thinking this is what I want and what I thought salvation was. That I would eventually get life as a human, not as a spirit. I don't mind resting in the grave, not even 10,000 years. What is time if gaining new life for an eternity.
If we go to heaven when we die, what's the point of a resurrection?
 
I don't think the concept is both ways. Either Jesus is in Heaven today in the same body he died in or he is a Spirit like his Father. That all the talk describing heaven in scripture is a spiritual description, the throne, the walls, the jewels, the music, the fountains, etc. After all if physical, where is it. If it's like this, then we go after death.

Now if it's physical and Jesus went there physically after his resurrection, then we will too but not until after our resurrections. It's also possible that the earth will be made new and we will spend eternity here. God restoring the Earth for us to continue His original plan. The Restoration having a true purpose and not just being to re-do what man destroyed.

It's also possible that Jesus will turn the Kingdom over to his Father, and that God and man will reign over this earthly kingdom from Heaven with Jesus as co-heirs.
 
Thread starter #150
The human desire demands immortality of the body.

The desire for a future life is in every man it must be satisfied. Even the lowest of rebels against God long for a better and longer life. God has made hungers in the human breast and also each has a corresponding satisfaction such as: water for thirst; food for hunger; friends for social nature; home for homesickness; God for spiritual hunger; and immortality for the desire for future life. We accept justice and believe in it because of universal conscience. Why not accept the belief in immortality because of universal hunger for it? Where did this faith come from if not of God? If you should find a dog yearning for eternal life, think about it, and reasoning how to get it, you would say that the dog has a higher nature and a spiritual faculty that you never dreamed it had. Take away the yearning and the spiritual faculties of men and he will be like a dog and will end like one.
No man of sound mind will reason that he is not of a higher nature than a dog and that he is not capable of higher and spiritual things of which the dog is incapable. After all the reasonings and arguments of men who seek to hide their sins by denying conscience and immortality, we still have the immortal soul left and the conscience to dictate to us the illogicalness and insanity of such reasoning. Man himself is left and man is a fact. He is an an eternal creature, created of God, leaving his body only for one time until the day of reckoning because of his sin and rebellion. Thus, the desire for immortality not only demands it but guarantees it.
 
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Southern Baptists believe that Jesus will come back to Earth one day. They contend that His return will be visible and physical. This differs from certain denominations that hold to an allegorical view of Christ’s return. It also differs from those denominations that believe Jesus will return spiritually rather than physically. The return of Jesus is the starting point for all Southern Baptist eschatology.

I guess I see life as more of a physical thing. To me life means living and thus to do so I need a physical body. Otherwise there would be no real purpose in a resurrection. Unless life is spiritual and we have a spiritual resurrection and afterlife. If that's the case then I'd say there is no future resurrection. There is no future judgement. Everything has already happened. It's over, you die and go to Heaven or He!!.
 
WHERE ARE THE DEAD ?

I think it's safe to say that regardless of what your exact beliefs are on this are, the dead in Christ are in a better place and the others are in a worse place. That's all I need for now. The rest will be known when the time is perfect according to His will.
 
Thread starter #153
Nature in man demands immortality of the body, no man can explain the origin of moral nature and moral obligation apart from the truth of immortality. Moral nature demands a set of laws and a future reward or punishment for obedience or disobedience respectively. History records that nations that have believed in immortality have moved onward and upward and those that have denied it have moved backward and downward. The increase of intelligence has brought human greatness as well as other improvements. However it is not intellectual development alone that causes greatness, but it is this in conjunction with moral development in the lives of common man. Egypt, Greece, and other empires prove this, when they reached the highest peak of their intellectual development and failed to develop the morals, they fell. Paul states this to be a fact in Rom. 1:16-32. We must not only have mentality, but morality, if any nation is long to endure. Our moral nature affirms in a thousand ways that there is a future life and we must obey the conscience and this nature or we will go back into darkness.
 
“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (for we walk by faith, not by sight we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:6-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

As I interpret scripture is we will be present with the Lord. It doesn’t matter to me if I’m in a 3rd heaven or heaven as long as I’m present with my savior. For those who haven’t been born again they are in he11 right now.
 
Thread starter #155
Natural desire to worship proves immortality of the body , man is a worshipper by nature. Why is there a universal desire to worship and seek God and peace for the soul if there is no future life. nature causes the birds to know when to go North and South and when to mate. The ant knows when to build its home and the bees knows how to make its cell. Everything in nature knows beyond a doubt what to do by nature. All creation simply obeys its natural instincts except man. Man is capable of rebellion and has a power of free choice and he has become unnatural and abnormal in many ways due to sin. But in spite of this his natural instinct makes him a worshipful creature and he worships even if it is not the true God that he longs for. Does this natural desire to worship lie to man and prove to him that there is no true God and eternal life? Is man the only creature that nature has fooled? Why do not the animals worship and long for eternal life? This proves immortality is not in their hearts like it is in man. If man will conform to his natural instinct to hope for a future life he will purify himself even as God is pure ( 1 John 3:1-3; 2 Cor. 7:1;Heb. 12:14-15; Gal. 5:24; 2 Cor. 5:17-21 ).
 
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