It was a simple question that led to you judging me while accusing me of judging others.
Where in that question was "false testimony"?
Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.
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Why I Attend WFR Church and Recommend you Check us Out
- Thread starter LittleDrummerBoy
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It was a simple question that led to you judging me while accusing me of judging others.
Where in that question was "false testimony"?
Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
I was wondering about musical instruments more related to the Church of Christ than just one individual Church. I've also wondered why it took many denominations years longer than some of the others to accept guitars over just the piano.
The only thing I can figure is the guitar might have been viewed as an instrument of sin related to night clubs. The fiddle was once thought to be the instrument of Satan.
In the late 60's-70's we had to go to Pentecostal Churches in my town to hear good Gospel music played on the guitar.
The only thing I can figure is the guitar might have been viewed as an instrument of sin related to night clubs. The fiddle was once thought to be the instrument of Satan.
In the late 60's-70's we had to go to Pentecostal Churches in my town to hear good Gospel music played on the guitar.
Browning Slayer
Official Voice Of The Dawgs !
Do you still attend Free Chapel?
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
How does it fit in with y'all's Messianic background?
I was reading that years ago that Church taught the gospel was for non-believers. In other words the lost were taught the gospel and congregation was taught the rest of the Old and New Testament Law so to speak. I probably ain't explaining this very well. Not judging, just trying to learn.
bullgator
Senior Member
This thread reminds me that more men have died in wars of religion than any other type of war.
Mars
Senior Member
Some folks would argue with God himself over their version of Christianity.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Yet we still discuss and read about past wars. I love to read about wars. It's quite interesting from a historical perspective. Especially their causes which most definitely is lead by religion.
World religions is also an interesting subject and why Jefferson had a Quran.
LittleDrummerBoy
Senior Member
Yes, we attend Free Chapel regularly, participate in one of their small groups, and regularly volunteer in local service stuff. But we consider WFR to be our church "home" in the sense of tithing, prayer requests, and spiritual covering.
Danuwoa
Redneck Emperor
Off topic I guess but why do people feel the need to complicate things unnecessarily. Church and Sunday school are now “corporate worship” and “small group” at a lot of churches. How and why did this start?
LittleDrummerBoy
Senior Member
We still have a great fondness for the Messianic movement. For the month of March, we served as the worship team for a local Messianic congregation for the four Shabbats that month while their regular worship team took a break to tend to some family needs. We also celebrated Passover with them.
Messianic congregations have many strengths that we appreciate, but I don't find them to be a great fit for my ministry evangelizing southern rednecks. The biggest issue for me is their tolerance and sometimes propagation of the Mosiac dietary law (no pork, no cheeseburgers, no catfish, no shrimp, etc.) The Messianic congregation we served at some years ago, including teaching at their Yeshiva, took great care in keeping dietary choices a matter of private conviction and conscience. They knew we ate catfish, shrimp, and bacon and never made an issue of it. Many other congregations end up with an inner circle that keeps kosher and an outer circle that does not. It is much harder for me to recommend these congregations with much enthusiasm to the typical southern redneck.
The "inner and outer" circles based on some denominational distinction is fairly common in many churches. Speaking in tongues is usually the thing in Pentecostal churches and adherence to strict Calvinism is common in "Reformed" churches. WFR is not without denominational distinctions, but we've been attending for two years now without our lack of personal adherence to some of them making us or our guests feel unwelcome.
Interestingly enough, the one local snake-handling type church I visited once had electric guitars, tambourines, and were playing Bo-Diddly style music and dancing. It was pretty cool.
Browning Slayer
Official Voice Of The Dawgs !
But within a minute of your video you say you were looking for a place that did not constantly ask you for "electronic giving" during that covid time.
Yet, Free Chapel is the one that constantly asks for "electronic giving" and has how many sermons about tithing a year? Yet, you don't tithe to them and instead tithe to an online service. I don't get it..
Semi-Pro
Full-Pro
I thought you went to a cowboy church?
LittleDrummerBoy
Senior Member
Many churches make requests for giving that are beyond my comfort level and out of proportion to the emphasis the topic receives in Scripture. If that was an absolute show stopper for me, there wouldn't be many churches I could attend or recommend.
In my video, my objection was not to requests for giving, but rather to cases where it was the only opportunity provided for two-way communication. Perhaps I prefer not to reward what I regard as bad behavior (too many giving requests).
Do you think one should have a preference to tithe and give to a local church rather than one they attend online? Since God loves a cheerful giver, my leaning is toward believers giving to whichever ministries we feel most cheerful about.
LittleDrummerBoy
Senior Member
That church closed their doors about the time of COVID and no longer exists. We liked them a lot and it was a sad transition for us, but a lot of these details are above our pay grade. Many smaller churches did not survive the COVID closures. It has been a tough time and many Jesus followers have had to adjust. We're happy to have found WFR Church - it's a good fit for reaching out to rednecks, especially as the Lord has grown my video audiences to 1.6 million viewers last year, many of whom are beyond North Georgia.
A lot more people will drive an hour to go fishing with me than will drive an hour to come to church with me. But I've been more effective inviting folks to join me in attendance at WFR than I ever was inviting people to church in person. People with church related stress are much more likely to attend a welcoming church online.
Browning Slayer
Official Voice Of The Dawgs !
Or maybe you don't want to Tithe to a church you spend so much of your time at because your pastor blows that money on a private jet after Sunday service to get to California and raise more funds. Franklin and his family and key staff members board a private plan and fly 2,300 miles west to Orange County, Calif., where a service takes place at 6 p.m every week.
Do you not feel cheerful about the ministries at Free Chapel?
LittleDrummerBoy
Senior Member
We spend more of our time at WFR (including in person and on-line) than at Free Chapel. We attended and tithed to Free Chapel for several years while our children were in high school. We deeply appreciated their youth group, worship, preaching, and teaching over those years. We never found anything objectionable in our observations in how they used their resources.
Our core conviction on tithing is that we prefer to tithe to the church we regard as our "home church" - the church whose leadership we are submitted to. When our children were in high school, that was Free Chapel. Now, it is WFR Church. But many times in our lives we have found opportunities for instruction, service and fellowship in other Christian ministries. Just because we don't tithe to those ministries does not mean we have negative regard for them. We often have not tithed to other local congregations we regard highly.
I like Free Chapel and I like Jentezen Franklin. I have no idea how I might conduct my own life and ministry if I had congregations as large and dispersed as those he is shepherding, and I'm not going to judge him on how he goes about his shepherding task. I am doing the work of an evangelist and reaching over 1 million people a year on a ministry budget of about $10k per year. I'm sure one could find an indigent evangelist in Ethiopia who might be jealous of my fancy 16 ft Alumacraft with twin 20 hp motors, my GoPro, and my Honda Pilot. But would he be any more right in his judgement of me than I would be if I judged Jentezen? We gave tens of thousands of dollars to Free Chapel over the years, and I don't regret a penny of it. I cannot say that about every ministry we have given to.
I'm glad you posted that. Maybe I wasn't clear. I too meant the denomination, not just WFR Church.
LittleDrummerBoy
Senior Member
I see churches as individual entities with varying degrees of influence from their denominational affiliations - a lot like most people. I have no idea what the official position of the denomination may be. Since COVID, I have attended services at several other churches with Church of Christ affiliations, and each individual congregation has had instrumental music at most of their services. At the same time, I've also enjoyed some excellent services with voice only music over that time. "Thou shalt have instruments" is just as silly as "thou shalt not have instruments."
My view is that if an individual church is getting orders from the denominational headquarters to the level of detail of whether or not to have instrumental music, then the headquarters is micromanaging stuff better left to the local elders who Scripture tells us are to "direct the affairs of the church."
My bigger concerns when attending or recommending specific bodies is how well they keep watch over the flock as "men who must give an account" and how well their teaching and preaching carry out the Great Commission. WFR is so good on these counts, that I would not have been slowed much had they been "vocal only" in their services as long as they made no attempt to impose "no instruments" on my family or guests.
Tonight is an annual summer worship event at WFR called "Worship in the Round." It is instrumental. Why not come check it out at 7:30 PM Eastern?
https://www.youtube.com/c/WfrchurchOrg
Thank you for your answer. Though I disagree with some of it I appreciate the insight to how it works. My question was not to judge but to understand. It would not work for me.
LittleDrummerBoy
Senior Member
Sure, and I appreciate that churches need to be open in person to continue to provide sacraments, confession, prayer, worship, teaching, preaching, and baptism for folks who prefer to receive them in person.
One of my friends served for years as an ordained full time pastor in a traditional church. The Lord has transitioned him to more of a "tent making" ministry now where he earns his living from a job in town and has a "house church" meeting in his home that he shepherds.
In the continuum from brick and mortar meetings in dedicated buildings to in-person meetings in homes (with ordained clergy) to in-person meetings in homes (with ordained clergy present electronically), it seems artificial to me to have a demarcation where one says, "communion is OK in these but not in those." I hate to make ordination any kind of litmus test having seen how easy those are to get, and how seldom I have seen ordination taken away from men even when unrepentant about disqualifying sins.
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