rjcruiser
Senior Member
I wonder if I can un-elect myself.
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What are your feelings on once saved always saved.
- Thread starter j_seph
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centerpin fan
Senior Member
gordon 2
Senior Member
I like your short vids better.
gordon 2
Senior Member
Yea. It is called stepping down.
Israel
BANNED
To say all starts and ends with God, His will, (oh, how I hate to talk about Him like He's in the other room, don't you?)...should it be for any of us odd... as to be strange in the hearing? What molecule (of man, starfish, or bit of dust on some planet farthest away, and never seen)...is not kept perfectly to the order of God's will?
And as to immaterial things, how large do we care to make the will of man? It must be (at best) either equal or less than that of our God. We know it cannot be greater. (Don't we?)
Does it matter how large it may seem in its "freedom", if it is less, it is then less...whether appearing to us as huge as the Sun...or as small as that molecule of dust. For if the will of God encompasses all things created...and even as to our knowledge, uncreated, really...what is the will of man but infinitely small, then? It is either "contained" completely, irrevocably by the will of God, (for whatever his purpose) or that other option is true. Man's will is equal...to God's will.
(the believer will have the knowledge of this in himself, manifested)
What then, of choice? What then of those places we see choice offered? "Choose ye this day whom you will serve, if the Lord be God serve Him, if Baal be god, serve him...(then)." Is not the choice a "given" thing...from God? In other words, that word comes out from God with the power of choice in it, it is not even there "to that man" who does not believe the Lord...is God. Is it? Is it calling a man to make a choice, according to his will "I will make the Lord...God?"...Or is it more to allow that man to be reminded to live according to the truth he recognizes? "I have you called thee to record this day before Heaven and Earth, and set before you blessings and cursings, life and death, therfore...choose life" Not only does the word from God come with the power to make plain there is a difference between life and death, blessings and cursings...but also with the express instruction...of what to choose. All the power...to choose, to recognize, to discern...whence its origin? Is it "from the man?"
Two men may say "I will know God"...(or ten, or a thousand).
But, we are men. Some of us dwell with women. Feel free to tell us how far your will goes to knowing her. If she, at any time senses your will is operating to know her, instead of love to know her...discerned...(and many a silly woman is made wise by error in mistaking one for the other), what will she do when she feels the incursion of nothing more than "your will" to know?
Yes, in it all, love is always and absolutely key in any true relating...communication, being together. Do we know this? Have we not learned, in truth, or are learning (in whatever measure)...this...in the presence of the one to whom all is open and laid bare...with whom we have to do. Have you discovered you had some "love tricks"? Had them exposed? But this is the thing...having come to see that...even what you may ascribe as the most pure, noble, irreduceably sublime thing you know..."your love"...once exposed as having (at least) a few faults to be found of it, and no longer able to even be sure you love what you say you love, for as said...even there, some deceits have been uncovered...your stand will never again be upon how much you believe you love God. It can only be in this, "the Lord knows those that are His"...and..."the Lord knows those who love him"...even if they can't even persuade themselves (one could say here that that would be a particularly comforting thought to one disabused of the imagined purity of his own motives, his own will, even his own love...and cause him, thereby to seek only one thing, single of eye...be pressed to perhaps...be squeezed and narrowed down to nothing left of the vanity of believing he can do one thing "toward God"...and there be content, in all, to begin to know what all God alone, has done toward him.)
We would see Jesus.
And as to immaterial things, how large do we care to make the will of man? It must be (at best) either equal or less than that of our God. We know it cannot be greater. (Don't we?)
Does it matter how large it may seem in its "freedom", if it is less, it is then less...whether appearing to us as huge as the Sun...or as small as that molecule of dust. For if the will of God encompasses all things created...and even as to our knowledge, uncreated, really...what is the will of man but infinitely small, then? It is either "contained" completely, irrevocably by the will of God, (for whatever his purpose) or that other option is true. Man's will is equal...to God's will.
(the believer will have the knowledge of this in himself, manifested)
What then, of choice? What then of those places we see choice offered? "Choose ye this day whom you will serve, if the Lord be God serve Him, if Baal be god, serve him...(then)." Is not the choice a "given" thing...from God? In other words, that word comes out from God with the power of choice in it, it is not even there "to that man" who does not believe the Lord...is God. Is it? Is it calling a man to make a choice, according to his will "I will make the Lord...God?"...Or is it more to allow that man to be reminded to live according to the truth he recognizes? "I have you called thee to record this day before Heaven and Earth, and set before you blessings and cursings, life and death, therfore...choose life" Not only does the word from God come with the power to make plain there is a difference between life and death, blessings and cursings...but also with the express instruction...of what to choose. All the power...to choose, to recognize, to discern...whence its origin? Is it "from the man?"
Two men may say "I will know God"...(or ten, or a thousand).
But, we are men. Some of us dwell with women. Feel free to tell us how far your will goes to knowing her. If she, at any time senses your will is operating to know her, instead of love to know her...discerned...(and many a silly woman is made wise by error in mistaking one for the other), what will she do when she feels the incursion of nothing more than "your will" to know?
Yes, in it all, love is always and absolutely key in any true relating...communication, being together. Do we know this? Have we not learned, in truth, or are learning (in whatever measure)...this...in the presence of the one to whom all is open and laid bare...with whom we have to do. Have you discovered you had some "love tricks"? Had them exposed? But this is the thing...having come to see that...even what you may ascribe as the most pure, noble, irreduceably sublime thing you know..."your love"...once exposed as having (at least) a few faults to be found of it, and no longer able to even be sure you love what you say you love, for as said...even there, some deceits have been uncovered...your stand will never again be upon how much you believe you love God. It can only be in this, "the Lord knows those that are His"...and..."the Lord knows those who love him"...even if they can't even persuade themselves (one could say here that that would be a particularly comforting thought to one disabused of the imagined purity of his own motives, his own will, even his own love...and cause him, thereby to seek only one thing, single of eye...be pressed to perhaps...be squeezed and narrowed down to nothing left of the vanity of believing he can do one thing "toward God"...and there be content, in all, to begin to know what all God alone, has done toward him.)
We would see Jesus.
hobbs27
Senior Member
hobbs27
Senior Member
KJV only have an art gallery ?
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Only if free will is true.
Seriously though, any views on God electing a remnant, blinding the rest, electing the Gentiles, waiting for the full number to come in, and re-electing the Jews he hardened earlier as describe in Romans 11?
This is related to OSAS in that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy and graft Israel back in again.
Of course one could say that in their hardened capacity, Israel was still of the elect in that God knew he would graft them back in again after the full number of Gentiles comes in.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
“Some claim that the Dead Sea Scrolls, as well as comments from early church writers, indicate
that the first 15 chapters of Acts were probably written first in Hebrew. The Greek would be a
translation… going back to a “redacted Hebrew” version, based upon word-for-word Greek-Hebrew
equivalents, would render Acts 13:48 more like “as many as submitted to, needed, or wanted salvation, were saved.”
Dave Hunt, What Love is This? 3rd Edition, 2006, page 264
http://www.freewill-predestination.com/acts13.html
If one is predestined then he surely will persevere to the end. If God sees you in Heaven even before you get there then that's where you'll be, no ands, ifs, or buts.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Romans 8:28
And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose.
Ephesians 1:4
For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love
Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Ephesians 1:11
In Him we were also chosen as God's own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will,
Romans 9:8
n other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
Romans 9:23
What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory?
How can we not finish the race if we are children of the promise?
And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose.
Ephesians 1:4
For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love
Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Ephesians 1:11
In Him we were also chosen as God's own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will,
Romans 9:8
n other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
Romans 9:23
What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory?
How can we not finish the race if we are children of the promise?
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Romans 9:31-33
31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame.”
Could works still be considered a stumbling stone? Could someone not have enough faith that they feel the need to produce works and therefore stumble over the stumbling stone?
The one who believes in Him will never be put to shame. What does it mean to "believe in Him?"
You reckon it means we couldn't save ourselves by works and therefore must repent from that belief to a belief that Jesus died for our sins?
Do you realize it was God who lay the stumbling stone in Zion? Wow!
Romans 11:5-6
5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.
You reckon God still chooses using his grace way or does he now use the works method for choosing?
31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame.”
Could works still be considered a stumbling stone? Could someone not have enough faith that they feel the need to produce works and therefore stumble over the stumbling stone?
The one who believes in Him will never be put to shame. What does it mean to "believe in Him?"
You reckon it means we couldn't save ourselves by works and therefore must repent from that belief to a belief that Jesus died for our sins?
Do you realize it was God who lay the stumbling stone in Zion? Wow!
Romans 11:5-6
5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.
You reckon God still chooses using his grace way or does he now use the works method for choosing?
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gemcgrew
Senior Member
Yes. It is entirely the work of God alone. He does not consult with man in the matter.
Particularly created for that very purpose. God is not subject to our will. We are subject to God's will.
"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy" (Romans 9:15-16)
The cause is God's sovereign will.
Yes. The foreknowing, predestinating, calling, justifying and glorifying is God's work alone.
Israel
BANNED
The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.…
Is there a place where the futility of will (we may call it a place, a thing, an instrument, a spiritual reality granted us) is made perfectly clear?
Is there a place where the futility of will (we may call it a place, a thing, an instrument, a spiritual reality granted us) is made perfectly clear?
gordon 2
Senior Member
On my mother's lap as she read to me that the Pharaoh ( a King) was stubborn to no end against God was perhaps my first very clear encounter in a spiritual sense on the futility of will, and the meanings of freedom and bondage. I was perhaps three or four yrs old.
j_seph
Senior Member
Was 1 Kings 18:21 not Elijah asking the question, not God asking?
<sup class="versenum">21 </sup>And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
A retraction to my post #70.
It was brought to my attention the author of the link I posted was not correct with his research on the Dead Sea scrolls and early Church writers.
The author was Dave Hunt.
http://www.challies.com/articles/as-many-as-wanted-salvation-were-saved
It was brought to my attention the author of the link I posted was not correct with his research on the Dead Sea scrolls and early Church writers.
The author was Dave Hunt.
http://www.challies.com/articles/as-many-as-wanted-salvation-were-saved
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gemcgrew
Senior Member
Elijah definitely asked the question. Whence came the question? Who directed Elijah to go and speak so boldly? Did he perform anything by any power of his own?
The prophets of God speak God's word.
rjcruiser
Senior Member
Israel
BANNED
Thank you for correcting my conflating of two scriptures, your quote was direct, mine from an error.
And to the point, perhaps precisely, that this correction now emphasizes.
There is a compelling from God, through Christ particularly (if not exclusively), toward each and every man to manifest his ownership. And each must. For it is the will of God to display what is His.
Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? No, it is for this purpose that I have come to this hour. Father, glorify Your name!” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.”
Let us make man in our image and in our likeness.
Therefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though you know them, and are established in the present truth.
O, to know the grace to be seen in God's will of shamelessly repeating Himself.
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hobbs27
Senior Member
I guess no one has figured out all the seemingly double talk of free will and predestination in the NT?
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