Billy Graham.

[NE GA Pappy]

Could it be they are holy until a certain age? Hey, I'm with you on the struggle of this issue. If it's mentioned that "otherwise they are not holy" in 1 Corinthians 7:14, then they must not have been. Regardless of their age.

So one could be saved as a child, as some see it, and lose this salvation later when they become an adult.

This is part of my struggle also.... How can they be holy in and of themselves or some action on their part. It can't be. They are infants and babies that can't repent, or change their actions. They have to grow and learn. So, from where does their redemption grow?

According to this scripture, it seems that they are covered because of the repentance and faith of their father until the time that they are capable of making the moral decisions that they face. It looks to me like the punishment for sins flow downward to the children, and the forgiveness of sins flow downward to the children depending on the status of the father.

Man, that is some sure 'nuff serious stuff. If this thought process is correct, then the children of unrepentant fathers are condemned. A big, big struggle for me.

but, didn't God condemn Cain and Able because of Adam's sin?

 

[SemperFiDawg]

In this group, what about the ones who haven't heard? Such as Native Americans 1,000 years ago? Individuals that believe in God and try to please him by good actions. They worship him and praise him. They live a peaceful life and help others. They forgive their trespassers.

THAT is why only an all knowing God can judge. They are still responsible for general revelation and only he can possible know and judge.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I am not sure that I would agree with this statement.

Let me try to explain where I am coming from, and the struggle I have with this entire thought process.

1. The presumption that everyone has salvation from the day of conception until the day they can comprehend good/evil.

2. The presumption that the authority that was given to Adam as the moral leader of his family has somehow diminished and no longer applies to current day fathers.

Here is some of my thoughts and concerns. I am not trying to sway anyone to my beliefs, just putting out there for consideration and correction if I am wrong.

God created this world, and had all authority over everything. All of creation. Heaven, earth, solar system, and universe, He held all authority. When he created all the animals, plants and such, He continued to hold the authority, but when He created Adam and Eve, He gave His authority over living things to Adam.
Gen 1:28
Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

Adam was given the law directly from God. Pretty simple, don't eat of one tree or you will die. It was Adam's responsibility to teach this law to Eve and to their children. Somewhere along the way, Adam screwed up his teaching to Eve, because when Satan appeared to her, she believed the lie, rather than the truth God had given Adam. She did this even though she and Adam walked in the garden daily with God. She bought the lie. And she convinced Adam to buy into the lie also. The entire purpose of Satan in this situation was to deceive Adam and deform the authority that God had given to them.

We know this authority over earth returned to Jesus when he resurrected from the grave. Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."

The authority line runs like this God - Adam - Adams family. We as fathers carry this authority now. God has given each father the authority and responsibility to teach his family.

Deut 4:9-10 "Only give heed to yourself and keep your soul diligently, so that you do not forget the things which your eyes have seen and they do not depart from your heart all the days of your life; but make them known to your sons and your grandsons. 10"Remember the day you stood before the LORD your God at Horeb, when the LORD said to me, 'Assemble the people to Me, that I may let them hear My words so they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children.'…

Plainly, fathers are given the authority to be the leader that points their offspring to God. Deut 11:19 Teach them to your children, talking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.

Just as God held Adam responsible for teaching his family, he holds each father responsible for teaching his family. Now, since God holds me responsible for teaching this, how does this affect my children before they become responsible for their own sins? This is where I begin to struggle. God condemned all of Adams family because of Adam's sin. Cain and Able had not sinned of and by themselves. They receive the punishment for a sin committed by Adam. The Curse. Death. God condemned not only Adam's offspring, but all of creation for one sin.

There are numerous accounts in the Bible where entire families were destroyed because of the sin of the father. There are multiple accounts where God commanded that every living soul of a nation be destroyed because of sin.

There are also multiple accounts where the Bible says the entire household was saved because of the repentance of the father.

So..... my struggle in a nut shell.....If God declared all of creation cursed because of Adams sin, and God dealt the punishment of Adam's sin to his children and cursed them, and God punished entire nations, every living creature including livestock, because of the sins of the fathers, why doesn't God judge my children by the sins of their father?

Regarding your very last sentence:

Pappy are you referring to children who are mature enough to be cognizant of the moral law, children who aren't or both?

I ask in the context of what Ezekiel 18 says. I won't cut and paste because it's extensive, but please review it and let me know. Thanks.

 

[Israel]

There's an excellent teaching tool found here.

As in all the Lord's word it is simply too marvelous in the way it works.

Just when we think we can go no farther...


Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.


We can all take that as very far as we can, and none of us can then boast...for what remains...remains for all.

 

[gordon 2]

The problem with individual sin is that it is not individual in influence. People are social. Social nurture is powerful to the point that it can instill as a value from a premise of evil and call it of God's righteousness.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

1 Corinthians 15:33 - Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

Conversely an evil generation can be turned to good by the deeds of one good (faithful and positive) individual.

Proverbs 4:27 - Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.

Caleb saw opportunity to overcome. And Joshua warned of and refused a rebel, against the Lord, with deed.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Regarding your very last sentence:

Pappy are you referring to children who are mature enough to be cognizant of the moral law, children who aren't or both?

I ask in the context of what Ezekiel 18 says. I won't cut and paste because it's extensive, but please review it and let me know. Thanks.

I am speaking of immature children, ones that are not able to understand the meaning of sin.

The one that are old enough to understand are certainly responsible for their own sins / repentance/ relationship with God.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I am speaking of immature children, ones that are not able to understand the meaning of sin.

The one that are old enough to understand are certainly responsible for their own sins / repentance/ relationship with God.

OK. Gotcha. I think you answered your own question. I'm not sure I buy everything you stated, but if you believe that.

2. The presumption that the authority that was given to Adam as the moral leader of his family has somehow diminished and no longer applies to current day fathers.

So..... my struggle in a nut shell.....If God declared all of creation cursed because of Adams sin, and God dealt the punishment of Adam's sin to his children and cursed them, and God punished entire nations, every living creature including livestock, because of the sins of the fathers, why doesn't God judge my children by the sins of their father?

In light of this:

We know this authority over earth returned to Jesus when he resurrected from the grave. Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."

Shouldn't this:

The authority line runs like this God - Adam - Adams family.

actually read:

The authority line runs like this God - Adam - Adams family - Christ Jesus

?

And if so wouldn't this:

We as fathers carry this authority now.

be an incorrect assumption?

But the answer to this question

why doesn't God judge my children by the sins of their father?

is readily apparent: the authority rest with Christ, not you.

BTW, I agree with your first presumption and also feel it is the DUTY of the father to lead his family to Christ. I don't know that I disagree with anything you stated, just have never thought about it that in-depth.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

On the lighter side

Billy Graham Converts Thousands To Christ While Waiting In Line To Get Into Heaven

http://babylonbee.com/news/billy-graham-converts-thousands-christ-waiting-line-get-heaven

And this is very appropriate for this thread.

Man Criticizing Billy Graham Has Never Preached Gospel One Single Time. Looking at you Gem.

http://babylonbee.com/news/man-criticizing-billy-graham-never-preached-gospel-one-single-time/

 

[Israel]

On the lighter side

Billy Graham Converts Thousands To Christ While Waiting In Line To Get Into Heaven

http://babylonbee.com/news/billy-graham-converts-thousands-christ-waiting-line-get-heaven

And this is very appropriate for this thread.

Man Criticizing Billy Graham Has Never Preached Gospel One Single Time. Looking at you Gem.

http://babylonbee.com/news/man-criticizing-billy-graham-never-preached-gospel-one-single-time/

That's odd. To make the assumption that GEM (or any other on this board) has never done that.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

That's odd. To make the assumption that GEM (or any other on this board) has never done that.

Post 29

Brother Gem's quote.

"Similar to the cults of our generation, Dr. Graham has employed terminology concerning he11 that is familiar to the Scriptures, but he utilizes a different dictionary. In redefining this vital Bible doctrine, Billy Graham has declared his allegiance with the blasphemous apostasy of our day."

They're others by other posters. You just have to read the thread.

 

[Israel]

Oh. It just appeared to me that GEM was being "looked at" as one never having shared the gospel "One Single Time".

 

[hobbs27]

If a chicken has a spot of blood on it, other chickens will peck and attack it until it's dead. Unfortunately Christians behave in this manner too.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

If a chicken has a spot of blood on it, other chickens will peck and attack it until it's dead. Unfortunately Christians behave in this manner too.

I was told once that Chrisitains are the only army that kills its wounded.

 

[gemcgrew]

Looking at you Gem.

SF, if you need help refuting the article, just say so. Attacking me, the Author of the article or the website, does not refute the article.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

OK. Gotcha. I think you answered your own question. I'm not sure I buy everything you stated, but if you believe that.

BTW, I agree with your first presumption and also feel it is the DUTY of the father to lead his family to Christ. I don't know that I disagree with anything you stated, just have never thought about it that in-depth.

So, If you believe this, then what is the method of salvation for those infants and small children who can't made their own decisions?

Are all children conceived and born in holiness and have no sin? And when they understand the sin/repentance process, all the back sins are recognized and charged to them?

Or are all children conceived and born in sin, but have Christ's forgiveness imputed to them until the day they can understand the sin/repentance process.

Or are all children conceived and born in sin, but God has some other method of viewing them and their sins? Just as God views my sins thru the lens of Christ blood and mercy?

BTW, I am not really interested in opinions on this subject. I am interested in what God and scripture says about the subject. After all, Scripture is the only truth we have in this world.

 

[welderguy]

So, If you believe this, then what is the method of salvation for those infants and small children who can't made their own decisions?

Are all children conceived and born in holiness and have no sin? And when they understand the sin/repentance process, all the back sins are recognized and charged to them?

Or are all children conceived and born in sin, but have Christ's forgiveness imputed to them until the day they can understand the sin/repentance process.

Or are all children conceived and born in sin, but God has some other method of viewing them and their sins? Just as God views my sins thru the lens of Christ blood and mercy?

BTW, I am not really interested in opinions on this subject. I am interested in what God and scripture says about the subject. After all, Scripture is the only truth we have in this world.

Gal.3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe

Rom.3:10
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom.3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 

[Artfuldodger]

Acts 16:31
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."

1 Corinthians 7:14
For the Christian wife brings holiness to her marriage, and the Christian husband brings holiness to his marriage. Otherwise, your children would not be holy, but now they are holy.

With these two verses plus the ones Welder posted, I'd say even little children are doomed, unless their Fathers are saved.

The question I have is what happens when they become men? Is the salvation granted them for being the children of Christians taken away?

1 Corinthians 7:14 tells us there are children out there that are not holy. Based on this verse not all children are saved if being holy means salvation.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.

John 4:53
Then the father realized that this was the very hour in which Jesus had told him, "Your son will live." And he and all his household believed.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

So, If you believe this, then what is the method of salvation for those infants and small children who can't made their own decisions?

Are all children conceived and born in holiness and have no sin? And when they understand the sin/repentance process, all the back sins are recognized and charged to them?

Or are all children conceived and born in sin, but have Christ's forgiveness imputed to them until the day they can understand the sin/repentance process.

Or are all children conceived and born in sin, but God has some other method of viewing them and their sins? Just as God views my sins thru the lens of Christ blood and mercy?

BTW, I am not really interested in opinions on this subject. I am interested in what God and scripture says about the subject. After all, Scripture is the only truth we have in this world.

Sorry Pappy, but there is no scripture that clearly delineates this subject that I am aware of. Sooooo speculation is pretty much the best you are gonna get.
Personally I believe very similar to this:

....all children are conceived and born in sin, but have Christ's forgiveness imputed to them until the day they can understand the sin/repentance process.

I think Adam's sin (original sin) is imparted to all people, but that one is not held accountable for personal sin until
one is cognizant of the moral law of God. For those who never reach this stage of development due to age or mental defects, I can only believe that a loving and merciful God who sees all applies Christ's sacrifice toward their original sin. Again, I'm at a loss to 'prove' this via scripture. We do know that Christ's sacrifice was enough to pay the debt for everyones sin, and we know that God is able to apply that atonement to whom he choses. Based on this I can only assume that this is what is done in those cases.

I can only point to Romans 4:15

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression

and 5:12

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

 

[Artfuldodger]

There are also countless verses where God kills the children in wicked cities and nations. I guess we could assume the children were holy from ignorance. Maybe God did it to punish the grownups and the children go to heaven.
David did say that he would see his son again one day.

Psalm 137:9
Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

1 Samuel 15:2-3
Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”