Billy Graham.

[NE GA Pappy]

Gal.3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe

Rom.3:10
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom.3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

how does this relate? Gal3:22 plainly doesn't apply since the children are not old enough or have the IQ to believe

Rom 3:10.. I totally agree, no one is righteous, but how does this apply to salvation for infants and babies?

the same applies to Rom 3:10.. I agree, but how does it apply?

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Acts 16:31
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."

1 Corinthians 7:14
For the Christian wife brings holiness to her marriage, and the Christian husband brings holiness to his marriage. Otherwise, your children would not be holy, but now they are holy.

With these two verses plus the ones Welder posted, I'd say even little children are doomed, unless their Fathers are saved.

The question I have is what happens when they become men? Is the salvation granted them for being the children of Christians taken away?

1 Corinthians 7:14 tells us there are children out there that are not holy. Based on this verse not all children are saved if being holy means salvation.

See, this is where I struggle. These are questions I haven't totally worked out in my mind.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

SemperFi,

I haven't found any scripture that would relate that God has forgiven the imputed sins of a child, except the verses that say if the father is saved, his household is saved, and the scripture about the offspring being holy if the parents are holy.

I don't find anything that offers any proof of what I was taught and believed for years and years - that a child was automatically ushered straight into heaven because they are innocent. Yet the scriptures say that all have sinned... and in iniquity we are conceived and in iniquity we are born.

So, I am left with the dilemma where I began this conversation. I can't be sure that salvation is granted to infants and babies from scripture, yet that is what I wish to believe. It is much more comfortable to believe that God grants immunity to them than to believe that they may be judged guilty because of the actions of their fathers. But some scriptures do seem to lead down that pathway.

At this point all I can do is recognize that Gods ways are above my way, and Gods thoughts are above my thoughts. Faith and trust in His promises and decrees is the only thing I can cling to, and that must be sufficient.

I would love to have someone educate me to the point I can be comfortable with this topic, but it seems this topic is one where the answers are not clear

 

[hobbs27]

That's a tough one for folks that believe in one of two outcomes. Eternal life in heaven or eternal life in torments. I'm glad I don't have to consider that as the options.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

SemperFi,

I haven't found any scripture that would relate that God has forgiven the imputed sins of a child, except the verses that say if the father is saved, his household is saved, and the scripture about the offspring being holy if the parents are holy.

I don't find anything that offers any proof of what I was taught and believed for years and years - that a child was automatically ushered straight into heaven because they are innocent. Yet the scriptures say that all have sinned... and in iniquity we are conceived and in iniquity we are born.

So, I am left with the dilemma where I began this conversation. I can't be sure that salvation is granted to infants and babies from scripture, yet that is what I wish to believe. It is much more comfortable to believe that God grants immunity to them than to believe that they may be judged guilty because of the actions of their fathers. But some scriptures do seem to lead down that pathway.

At this point all I can do is recognize that Gods ways are above my way, and Gods thoughts are above my thoughts. Faith and trust in His promises and decrees is the only thing I can cling to, and that must be sufficient.

I would love to have someone educate me to the point I can be comfortable with this topic, but it seems this topic is one where the answers are not clear

What do you think about Romans 4 and 5 I mentioned above. It doesn't mention children specifically, but do you think it's wrong to infer that they fall under the context of what Paul is speaking of here?

 

[welderguy]

how does this relate? Gal3:22 plainly doesn't apply since the children are not old enough or have the IQ to believe

Rom 3:10.. I totally agree, no one is righteous, but how does this apply to salvation for infants and babies?

the same applies to Rom 3:10.. I agree, but how does it apply?

Are you suggesting that John did not believe when he lept for joy in his mother's womb at the salutation of Mary/Jesus?

 

[NE GA Pappy]

What do you think about Romans 4 and 5 I mentioned above. It doesn't mention children specifically, but do you think it's wrong to infer that they fall under the context of what Paul is speaking of here?

but we have the law, therefore we recognize sin.

I don't think you can say that children fall under this heading. If that where so, it would seem the best way to make sure that everyone possible ended up in heaven would be to quit telling anyone about the gospel.

Ignorance is bliss... or in this case ignorance is salvation.

this seems to fall in the I hope it's so category rather than I believe category to me.

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Are you suggesting that John did not believe when he lept for joy in his mother's womb at the salutation of Mary/Jesus?

What did John believe at this point, and was John offered salvation before birth?

Sure the scripture speaks of John leaping for joy when Mary entered the room. We all would probably leap for joy if we were in the same room as Christ. But does this mean John was offered and accepted salvation or that all children are offered and accept salvation before birth?

 

[gemcgrew]

What did John believe at this point, and was John offered salvation before birth?

Sure the scripture speaks of John leaping for joy when Mary entered the room. We all would probably leap for joy if we were in the same room as Christ. But does this mean John was offered and accepted salvation or that all children are offered and accept salvation before birth?

"For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."

 

[NE GA Pappy]

"For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."

isn't this scripture applied to John only, or does it apply to all children?

If all children are saved before/after birth, wouldn't it be best if they died in infancy?

If all children are innocent and blameless, why is it a bad thing for them to be aborted? isn't that a way to insure they reach heaven? After all, if they grew up to be unbelievers they wouldn't go to heaven.

Something doesn't add up here

 

[Artfuldodger]

That's a tough one for folks that believe in one of two outcomes. Eternal life in heaven or eternal life in torments. I'm glad I don't have to consider that as the options.

Why is it easier for someone who believes the unsaved die when they die? Wouldn't you wonder if you had a child to die at an early age if they had everlasting life?

 

[gemcgrew]

isn't this scripture applied to John only, or does it apply to all children?

Your question was regarding John. I am not applying it to all children.

If all children are saved before/after birth, wouldn't it be best if they died in infancy?

That is a big "if", but it is best that they die at their appointed time.

If all children are innocent and blameless, why is it a bad thing for them to be aborted? isn't that a way to insure they reach heaven? After all, if they grew up to be unbelievers they wouldn't go to heaven.

Something doesn't add up here

Murder is wrong.

Scripture does not show much interest in this topic. We probably shouldn't either.

God's purpose according to election will stand.

 

[Artfuldodger]

but we have the law, therefore we recognize sin.

I don't think you can say that children fall under this heading. If that where so, it would seem the best way to make sure that everyone possible ended up in heaven would be to quit telling anyone about the gospel.

Ignorance is bliss... or in this case ignorance is salvation.

this seems to fall in the I hope it's so category rather than I believe category to me.

That's something I've thought of as well. If children or retarded people are granted salvation based on ignorance then what about all the people who haven't heard of Jesus? Even if they know God, they don't know Jesus.
Jesus is the only way.

Side note; I believe Romans 1:20 is about Israel. They knew God and didn't worship him.
The reason I believe this is because they "exchanged" the worship of God for that of idols.
This passage is not related to Native Americans. God didn't give Native Americans up to the desires of their hearts.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Are you suggesting that John did not believe when he lept for joy in his mother's womb at the salutation of Mary/Jesus?

Why is it that all of God's elect don't have an effectual calling from the womb or even as a toddler? I've seen more effectual callings of teenagers and adults than infants.
I do realize this is up to God giving John and Jesus as examples as being called from the womb.

1 Corinthians 7:14
For the Christian wife brings holiness to her marriage, and the Christian husband brings holiness to his marriage. Otherwise, your children would not be holy, but now they are holy.

Do you see this verse as a key as to why God appears to call children of the elect more than say Muslim children?

 

[NE GA Pappy]

Scripture does not show much interest in this topic. We probably shouldn't either.

God's purpose according to election will stand.

I am not sure this solves anything. Ignoring a valid question because scripture doesn't 'show much interest' in the subject seems dangerous to me.

God's purpose will always stand. I am not sure I believe in election as to people having no choice in the matter.

 

[gemcgrew]

Jesus is the only way.

Not according to Billy Graham(this is a Billy Graham thread). Paul said that the believer has the mind of Christ. Billy said that the believer does not even have to be conscious of Christ.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Another example, Samson;

Judges 13:15
You will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and his hair must never be cut. For he will be dedicated to God as a Nazirite from birth. He will begin to rescue Israel from the Philistines."

His effectual calling was at birth.

 

[gemcgrew]

I am not sure this solves anything. Ignoring a valid question because scripture doesn't 'show much interest' in the subject seems dangerous to me.

God's purpose will always stand. I am not sure I believe in election as to people having no choice in the matter.

I am not ignoring the question. When our fist baby was miscarried, this topic weighed heavy on me. I searched and searched and searched for a definitive answer on the matter.

The end result was trusting God.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Not according to Billy Graham(this is a Billy Graham thread). Paul said that the believer has the mind of Christ. Billy said that the believer does not even have to be conscious of Christ.

I think he said they may not know the name of Jesus. He said "they are members of the Body of Christ because they have been called by God."
Isn't that how election works? God can call from the Muslim community? You can't make it to every person in the Muslim community but God can call from it his Elect.

 

[gemcgrew]

I think he said they may not know the name of Jesus. He said "they are members of the Body of Christ because they have been called by God."
Isn't that how election works? God can call from the Muslim community? You can't make it to every person in the Muslim community but God can call from it his Elect.

God draws them to Christ.