Questions for the old timers

[Ihunt]

Disease is the only answer that will cover the problem in all areas of the eastern U.S. that has had a major decline in turkey population.....as an ''old timer'',I have been very close to two large populations of turkeys that vanished in 2 years time..

Yes sir. Now, what disease? Where from? How to control it? And lastly, why will they not admit it?

 

[XIronheadX]

2012= The average brood size of 7.4 poults observed in 2012 was 8% more than 2011 (6.9) and 5.6% less than the previous 5 years average

2013-The average brood size of 6.0 poults observed in 2013 was 20% less than 2012

2014=The average brood size of 5.2 poults observed in 2014 was 12.3% less than 2013 (6.0) and 27% less than the 5 year average

2015-The average brood size of 4.75 poults observed in 2015 was 9% less than 2014 (5.2) and 20% less than the 5 year average

2016+The average brood size of 5.36 poults observed in 2016 was 12.8% greater than 2015 (4.75) and 7.6% less than the 5 year average

It only got worse after that. Maybe it gets better soon. I've read that small amounts of mold make hens lay less eggs?. Predators?- Always been there.
Where I've been the last few years there are lots of turkeys. No feed. Loads of predators. Good habitat, but its changing to worse of late.

 

[saltysenior]

2012= The average brood size of 7.4 poults observed in 2012 was 8% more than 2011 (6.9) and 5.6% less than the previous 5 years average

2013-The average brood size of 6.0 poults observed in 2013 was 20% less than 2012

2014=The average brood size of 5.2 poults observed in 2014 was 12.3% less than 2013 (6.0) and 27% less than the 5 year average

2015-The average brood size of 4.75 poults observed in 2015 was 9% less than 2014 (5.2) and 20% less than the 5 year average

2016+The average brood size of 5.36 poults observed in 2016 was 12.8% greater than 2015 (4.75) and 7.6% less than the 5 year average

It only got worse after that. Maybe it gets better soon. I've read that small amounts of mold make hens lay less eggs?. Predators?- Always been there.
Where I've been the last few years there are lots of turkeys. No feed. Loads of predators. Good habitat, but its changing to worse of late.

how about how many hens where seen each year ??? was that in a decline too ??

 

[XIronheadX]

how about how many hens where seen each year ??? was that in a decline too ??

I didn't pay much attention to that part of it when I zoned in on the poults. It was based on hens actually observed with poults. There's a lot more info in the reports. It's on this page below the surveys. I guess we all need to participate more so they can record some data. I'd like to see trail cam info incorporated into it as well. That's where I do my inventory, by leaving the cameras out during turkey season and all summer.

https://georgiawildlife.com/harvest-summaries

 

[XIronheadX]

Last page of the 2018 report.

"Further Comparisons from the Turkey Hunting Population Index Survey • Even though we had a fair 2016 reproductive season which carried over to a marginally better 2017 hunting season, it was followed by what may have been the worst documented reproductive season we’ve experienced in 2017. Therefore, the 2017 reproductive season nullified the 2016 reproductive season over a large part of the state and is why the 2018 hunting season was overall worse than in 2017. • Ninety-three percent of the state is privately held, therefore private landowners’ actions will determine what happens with our turkey population. We are losing turkey habitat (especially turkey nesting and poult rearing habitat) and are continuing to suffer regional declines in quality and quantity of turkey habitat leading to an overall lower turkey population than occurred in the previous decades. It is becoming more common to have local population declines in certain areas of the state, however some areas are still seeing increasing populations, likely a direct result of changing habitat conditions. For these reasons it is critical that we continue to monitor turkey populations closely into the future. One of the most important things to consider when managing turkeys is the effect of harvest and the ability to carry over adult birds into the next year. One of our best Wildlife Management Areas in the state has averaged approximately 3 gobblers harvested/square mile (640 acres). I would recommend using a lower number of 2 gobblers or less harvested per square mile for hunting clubs as a turkey harvest guideline (or an easy rule of thumb of 1/500)"
___________
They have to be able to walk from one source to another. Mowing and planting strips through briar and undergrowth they can't walk helps. Select cut is great for 2 yrs then it grows back. Anything I can connect with strips they can flow through helps where I'm at.

 

[saltysenior]

t

Yes sir. Now, what disease? Where from? How to control it? And lastly, why will they not admit it?

do not understand the lack of info put out by agencies and organizations that have studied this problem.....seems they are letting us accept the reasons that only apply locally and are constantly brought up by hunter's ideas formed by local observations

 

[saltysenior]

Last page of the 2018 report.

"Further Comparisons from the Turkey Hunting Population Index Survey • Even though we had a fair 2016 reproductive season which carried over to a marginally better 2017 hunting season, it was followed by what may have been the worst documented reproductive season we’ve experienced in 2017. Therefore, the 2017 reproductive season nullified the 2016 reproductive season over a large part of the state and is why the 2018 hunting season was overall worse than in 2017. • Ninety-three percent of the state is privately held, therefore private landowners’ actions will determine what happens with our turkey population. We are losing turkey habitat (especially turkey nesting and poult rearing habitat) and are continuing to suffer regional declines in quality and quantity of turkey habitat leading to an overall lower turkey population than occurred in the previous decades. It is becoming more common to have local population declines in certain areas of the state, however some areas are still seeing increasing populations, likely a direct result of changing habitat conditions. For these reasons it is critical that we continue to monitor turkey populations closely into the future. One of the most important things to consider when managing turkeys is the effect of harvest and the ability to carry over adult birds into the next year. One of our best Wildlife Management Areas in the state has averaged approximately 3 gobblers harvested/square mile (640 acres). I would recommend using a lower number of 2 gobblers or less harvested per square mile for hunting clubs as a turkey harvest guideline (or an easy rule of thumb of 1/500)"
___________
They have to be able to walk from one source to another. Mowing and planting strips through briar and undergrowth they can't walk helps. Select cut is great for 2 yrs then it grows back. Anything I can connect with strips they can flow through helps where I'm at.

very good thoughts but, again not holding water in all states or areas
we had turkeys in our suburban area beginning about 10 years ago..they vanished about 4 years ago without anything changing....many towns in N.J.and Mass. were plagued with a nuisance population that has fallen without any of the often blamed reasons......It seems to me that a turkey population will rise in good habitat (Towns included) until,for some reason,it dwindles down to almost nothing.

 

[XIronheadX]

very good thoughts but, again not holding water in all states or areas
we had turkeys in our suburban area beginning about 10 years ago..they vanished about 4 years ago without anything changing....many towns in N.J.and Mass. were plagued with a nuisance population that has fallen without any of the often blamed reasons......It seems to me that a turkey population will rise in good habitat (Towns included) until,for some reason,it dwindles down to almost nothing.

Turkeys are a fragile thing no doubt. So, many things can have a negative effect. Even down to they are like a family based on a flock. And take on different roles. A single flock needs at least a square mile of good habitat. I think many just see them as bird wandering through the woods. The last two large areas I've been a part of, I watch flocks break up in spring, and the toms go set up shop in certain areas of a property. They lay claim to it. And that's where I'd find certain birds throughout most of the season.

I'm suburban too. We had birds in here a few years back. I see them a few miles away some years. This year they were back around here. That's habitat related.

 

[Swamprat]

Nobody buying pelts anymore like say 30-40 years ago and beyond has probably contributed to a increase of predators but remember they have always been around.

Fire ants play a big part in death of newly hatched chicks IMO.

I think the biggest reason for decline in populations is the lack of diverse habitat. You go from lets say 1000 acres of natural pines, oaks, other tree types, various thickness of under brush etc. to a monoculture of planted pines that had the oaks killed and the pine saplings in a few years after planting become a wall of blackberry bushes or gallberries then no turkey is gonna use that type of habitat.

 

[XIronheadX]

Nobody buying pelts anymore like say 30-40 years ago and beyond has probably contributed to a increase of predators but remember they have always been around.

Fire ants play a big part in death of newly hatched chicks IMO.

I think the biggest reason for decline in populations is the lack of diverse habitat. You go from lets say 1000 acres of natural pines, oaks, other tree types, various thickness of under brush etc. to a monoculture of planted pines that had the oaks killed and the pine saplings in a few years after planting become a wall of blackberry bushes or gallberries then no turkey is gonna use that type of habitat.

I agree with both the fire ants and habitat. Flood plains or undisturbed large creek bottoms usually always have turkeys. But, once timber is managed for harvest its like musical chairs. First thinned pines are great for a year. Select cut for 2. Clear cut for a couple. If you can manage the undergrowth you can keep turkeys there. Otherwise, they are on the move to something they can walk and utilize.

 

[Swamprat]

Our property has a good size creek bottom with the hills being a mix of natural pines and turkey oaks. It is sand hill country so not great for plots and trust me we try but always have turkeys utilizing it in some form or fashion.

 

[sea trout]

I'm not an ol timer or a genius but I hope to be one day!
I'd like to compare what's different in our state than other states where turkeys are.
Like coyotes in Texas, Oklaholma, Kansas.
Like fire ants and armadillos in Florida.
Raccoons, owls and eagles in Maine.
What's different about our state having a turkey decline in the past dozen years and these states that have always had turkey coexist with these predators that many in Georgia are blaming?

 

[Mark K]

I can tell you that the states you mentioned aren’t as great as you think.

Let’s start with Kansas. When I first started going out there 10 years ago, there were turkeys everywhere. Now, not so much.

Texas is mostly private land and managed and trapped quite well.

Oklahoma has seen a steady decline, but a lot of that is fire and weather related.

Florida isn’t what it used to be either, but there’s quite a bit of private land there as well. Actually Florida can be hit or miss. Been there for 9 straight days and heard a total of three gobbles. Been for 3 days and limited out.

If there’s a decline in Georgia as stated then what is the ONE thing we as hunters CAN control?

We can’t control the habitat unless on private lands.

We can’t control the weather.

The only thing we CAN control is predators on both public and private. Surly predators have some part in a turkeys life cycle, but yet no one wants to do anything about them.

Work the problem and control what you can control. Everything else is up to the State and Mother Nature.

Really can’t believe we are having this conversation after everyone had a pretty successful season. I know plenty of public land hunters that hunt different WMA’s than I did and they all got to play the game this season.

The days of walking out to your local field and throwing half a dozen decoys out and shooting your limit are over. Gotta work for what you want...during the season and afterwards.

 

[Buckman18]

I can tell you that the states you mentioned aren’t as great as you think.

Let’s start with Kansas. When I first started going out there 10 years ago, there were turkeys everywhere. Now, not so much.

Texas is mostly private land and managed and trapped quite well.

Oklahoma has seen a steady decline, but a lot of that is fire and weather related.

Florida isn’t what it used to be either, but there’s quite a bit of private land there as well. Actually Florida can be hit or miss. Been there for 9 straight days and heard a total of three gobbles. Been for 3 days and limited out.

If there’s a decline in Georgia as stated then what is the ONE thing we as hunters CAN control?

We can’t control the habitat unless on private lands.

We can’t control the weather.

The only thing we CAN control is predators on both public and private. Surly predators have some part in a turkeys life cycle, but yet no one wants to do anything about them.

Work the problem and control what you can control. Everything else is up to the State and Mother Nature.

Really can’t believe we are having this conversation after everyone had a pretty successful season. I know plenty of public land hunters that hunt different WMA’s than I did and they all got to play the game this season.

The days of walking out to your local field and throwing half a dozen decoys out and shooting your limit are over. Gotta work for what you want...during the season and afterwards.

X2.

I killed my first turkey in 1997, when I was 17, about 3 miles deep in the mountains on Dawson Forest. Here it is in 2019, and I had to walk 3 miles deep on Chattahoochee WMA to kill a turkey this year. Dozens of similar successful and unsuccessful hunts over the past 22 years and they all have one thing in common. Keep walking.

3 years ago, for the first time, I hunted my deer lease in middle Georgia. Turkey hunting there is a piece of cake. Deer hunting also. Before then I’ve personally never experienced anything other than mountain turkeys. Some folks just need to learn to hunt. These are NOT lean times overall.

 

[XIronheadX]

I'm not an ol timer or a genius but I hope to be one day!
I'd like to compare what's different in our state than other states where turkeys are.
Like coyotes in Texas, Oklaholma, Kansas.
Like fire ants and armadillos in Florida.
Raccoons, owls and eagles in Maine.
What's different about our state having a turkey decline in the past dozen years and these states that have always had turkey coexist with these predators that many in Georgia are blaming?

I'm not an ol timer either, just experienced. lol Genius don't apply to turkey hunting
What's different is habitat
I think the avg. turkey hunter goes straight to the gimics they use on tv, so they aren't as good of a turkey hunter.
Because turkeys don't gobble, doesn't mean there are no turkeys.
Anytime I thought there were no turkeys, I ended up with loads on camera. Cameras don't lie.
Deer habitat, and rabbit habitat is different than turkey habitat. Help the turkeys
If 90% of the state is privately owned, but everyone saying there are no turkeys are hunting public, that doesn't mean there are no turkeys.
If too many are wandering around on public land shooting and bumping turkeys all day, there's a good chance they will never see or hear a turkey.
If everyone could shoot 2 or 3 turkeys, there would be no turkeys. lol
I can go back to the year before the state harvest was 35k, people are complaining about no turkeys.
Everyone wants 3 turkeys, but they only want to pay the cost of a license to get one.
Invest in quality leased land to hunt on where you can improve your own hunting. Turkeys aren't free anymore. Control your chances or walk further.
Don't depend on the state to provide you with turkeys.
If I hadn't left 3 trail cams out this year to see all the different turkeys. The flocks of hens and different gobblers. I may have said this was a terrible year. It was that kind of season for turkeys gobbling and responding.
Stop and think about it. If there are 300k birds in the state. Imagine how many are actually 2 yr or older tom turkeys. Then think about how many hunters are snuggled up in a blind with some decoys in a clearing, or crawling around with a fan like a slug with feathers. People flocking like maggots to gobbling birds on public land. What kind of chance do you really have to claim there are turkeys? lol
There are probably not many turkeys on public land. Hunters have harrassed them, shot at them, scared them to death and walked through their nests by the thousands.
I love looking at the trail cam pics of all these turkeys. It cost money and sweat. I think I'm gonna name the biggest one George

 

[herb mcclure]

As I have stated before on this forum when referring to predators and the wild turkey declines; hawks are the turkeys worst predators in my estimation. I have studied wild turkeys in lots of places here in Georgia for many years. I really was fortunate to have wild turkeys live at my homeplace for the last 25 years; where I could observe what was going on in relation to what predator was the most destructive predator. Even this season I witness hawks sailing around in the turkey's woods where I hunted; before the leaves had put-out.
Here is an example of what has happened to the pigeons that one time was numerous in the city of Gainesville, GA.; (due to the feed mills for the chicken industries there). Today, you do not see a pigeon anywhere. I am living there now, and hawks are everywhere.
This probably should not be told on this subject, but it relates to wild turkey's decline. In my fifty plus years of hunting the same place where I hunted this season; it was the first and only season that I did not see a gobbler there at all. Even, with four trail cameras that have been in the woods since February; only one had photos of a gobbler; in three months.

 

[saltysenior]

I'm not an ol timer either, just experienced. lol Genius don't apply to turkey hunting
What's different is habitat
I think the avg. turkey hunter goes straight to the gimics they use on tv, so they aren't as good of a turkey hunter.
Because turkeys don't gobble, doesn't mean there are no turkeys.
Anytime I thought there were no turkeys, I ended up with loads on camera. Cameras don't lie.
Deer habitat, and rabbit habitat is different than turkey habitat. Help the turkeys
If 90% of the state is privately owned, but everyone saying there are no turkeys are hunting public, that doesn't mean there are no turkeys.
If too many are wandering around on public land shooting and bumping turkeys all day, there's a good chance they will never see or hear a turkey.
If everyone could shoot 2 or 3 turkeys, there would be no turkeys. lol
I can go back to the year before the state harvest was 35k, people are complaining about no turkeys.
Everyone wants 3 turkeys, but they only want to pay the cost of a license to get one.
Invest in quality leased land to hunt on where you can improve your own hunting. Turkeys aren't free anymore. Control your chances or walk further.
Don't depend on the state to provide you with turkeys.
If I hadn't left 3 trail cams out this year to see all the different turkeys. The flocks of hens and different gobblers. I may have said this was a terrible year. It was that kind of season for turkeys gobbling and responding.
Stop and think about it. If there are 300k birds in the state. Imagine how many are actually 2 yr or older tom turkeys. Then think about how many hunters are snuggled up in a blind with some decoys in a clearing, or crawling around with a fan like a slug with feathers. People flocking like maggots to gobbling birds on public land. What kind of chance do you really have to claim there are turkeys? lol
There are probably not many turkeys on public land. Hunters have harrassed them, shot at them, scared them to death and walked through their nests by the thousands.
I love looking at the trail cam pics of all these turkeys. It cost money and sweat. I think I'm gonna name the biggest one George

BUT, there is no hunting or poaching going on in suburban areas such as mine where the population has fallen.

 

[XIronheadX]

BUT, there is no hunting or poaching going on in suburban areas such as mine where the population has fallen.

It's suburban. Not enough habitat in one place. They roam. Dogs running through the wood lots. Same predators in the creek areas. Non stop disturbance. When they show up here, its not for long.

Just think about what a suburban turkey goes through to flock back up and breed. All they got to rely on is their ears. All that noise to try and find each other through. Requires a lot of roaming around.

 

[saltysenior]

As I have stated before on this forum when referring to predators and the wild turkey declines; hawks are the turkeys worst predators in my estimation. I have studied wild turkeys in lots of places here in Georgia for many years. I really was fortunate to have wild turkeys live at my homeplace for the last 25 years; where I could observe what was going on in relation to what predator was the most destructive predator. Even this season I witness hawks sailing around in the turkey's woods where I hunted; before the leaves had put-out.
Here is an example of what has happened to the pigeons that one time was numerous in the city of Gainesville, GA.; (due to the feed mills for the chicken industries there). Today, you do not see a pigeon anywhere. I am living there now, and hawks are everywhere.
This probably should not be told on this subject, but it relates to wild turkey's decline. In my fifty plus years of hunting the same place where I hunted this season; it was the first and only season that I did not see a gobbler there at all. Even, with four trail cameras that have been in the woods since February; only one had photos of a gobbler; in three months.

I have seen the damage birds of prey can do on game birds...and they are everywhere this decline is taking place as opposed to other reasons brought forward.
years back anyone involved with the protection of quail had a varmint rifle in the truck and many traps set on fence post

 

[saltysenior]

It's suburban. Not enough habitat in one place. They roam. Dogs running through the wood lots. Same predators in the creek areas. Non stop disturbance. When they show up here, its not for long.

Just think about what a suburban turkey goes through to flock back up and breed. All they got to rely on is their ears. All that noise to try and find each other through. Requires a lot of roaming around.

very true,but were'nt all these factors in place when the population was rapidly growing??