Miguel Cervantes
Jedi Master
Would you know darkness if there were no light?
Would you know evil if there were no good?
Even the Yin cannot exist without the Yang.
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I couldn't help it
- Thread starter ambush80
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Would you know darkness if there were no light?
Would you know evil if there were no good?
Even the Yin cannot exist without the Yang.
Really, He11 isn't in the Bible? It's chock full of it, especially the New Testament. Jesus himself mentioned the fires of He11 many times. I reckon Jesus should be an authority on the subject if anybody ever was?
If Jesus's words about He11 were "added," then what else was? How can you trust any of it then?
As a matter of fact, 90% of the sermons I've ever heard in my life, (and that's a lot of them,) were chock full o' He11 and fire and brimstone and eternal torment for unbelievers. He11 often seems to be the focal point of most Christian belief.
WaltL1
Senior Member
Not answering for 1gr8bldr but I think "added" isn't really the proper word. FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, the Heaven/He11 concept wasn't the original teachings. There were snippets that could be interpreted as such but it wasn't what was taught. The focus was on "Heaven".
The He11 concept grew in popularity as it proved to be much more successful at putting butts in seats.
That morphed into exactly what you described.
Fear is a strong motivator.
Miguel Cervantes
Jedi Master
In later translations, particularly the KJV, you are correct, but not from the original transliterations.
Tartaroo (tartarovw) is one of the words used in 2 Peter 2:4 and it's definition is as follows;
In either case I think the metaphoric meaning of it's use is universally accepted as a place none of us want to be. Perhaps it seemed logical at the time of the KJV translations to parse all references down to just one word to cover it's intent?
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
When someone believes in gods and demons why is it that in your world where anything is possible whatever happens is a result of the "good god" and not the "bad devil"?
Has the devil deceived you both instead of god having a hand in it at all?
Miguel Cervantes
Jedi Master
The Babylon Bee has a great sarcastic parody on this very subject "putting butts in seats" that they recently released. It is spot on.
Miguel Cervantes
Jedi Master
There is a book by C.S. Lewis called "The Screwtape Letters" that addresses this very topic, and is a must read for anyone, particularly Christians.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Can you give us a basic rundown of what it says?
From an outside observer I notice that the overwhelming majority of believers in any god are convinced that as an individual they are doing things correctly and therefore they have the approval and full backing of their god. They often point out what other believers are not doing correctly to be able to be as close to a god as they are. And no matter if things in life are positive or negative it is a result of their gods hand in it and not the millions of evil minions that also exist in their world, but constantly are ignored and passed over.
Kind of like the style of constantly cherry picking the good verses and ignoring the bad verses that takes place so frequently.
WaltL1
Senior Member
The entertainment consoles on the pew backs?The Babylon Bee has a great sarcastic parody on this very subject "putting butts in seats" that they recently released. It is spot on.
The He11 threat used to work.
Had to change tactics and go with entertainment
I'm sure that satan has a hand in it. He is the great deceiver you know. But he has to ask permission from God to do it.(ie. Job 1)
WaltL1
Senior Member
Of course.
So God does not deceive but does allow for a great deceiver.
I think that falls under "letting someone else do the dirty work".
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
So Satan went to god, to ask permission from god so that Satan could rebel?
Why ask permission if god already knows what is going to happen, if not has already planned for it to happen?
You paint yourself into a lot of corners when you try to mesh all knowing with not all knowing. Just like the writers of the bible did.
Everyone and everything is subject to God. He created it ALL for His purpose.
Nothing happens without God allowing it.
So this isn't the concept of heaven and He11, or it was added later?
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
And Jesus didn't actually say this:
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear."
Or this?
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime received thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Or this, and much more like it?
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Now I'm really confused. So, one of the main themes of the Bible and the whole Christian belief system is not real, and was "added," and Jesus didn't really say what the Bible says he said?
How could one be a Christian and claim that the Bible is the Word of God, but not believe in punishment via He11 for non-believers?
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Then we are all doing precisely what we have been designed to to.
You are so lucky to be part of the chosen.
Divine allotment has nothing to do with random luck.
But I kinda understand what you might be meaning. That I've received something that I had nothing whatsoever to do with.
You may receive it too, when you least expect it. Keep looking for it. He's a God who delights in mercy.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Except when he is drowning people etc etc etc.
You did the same thing when you called the exterminator out to do a termite treatment.
Those poor termites. They were just doing what their nature was to do.
You were soooo unfair to them. Did they not have any special meaning to you at all?
And to beat it all, you didn't even create them. That's outrageous of you!
How dare you!
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
You did the same thing when you called the exterminator out to do a termite treatment.
Those poor termites. They were just doing what their nature was to do.
You were soooo unfair to them. Did they not have any special meaning to you at all?
And to beat it all, you didn't even create them. That's outrageous of you!
How dare you!
1. I never had termites.
2. People = Bugs to you.
And you wonder why many in here cannot take you as credible.
3. Your children must be terrified that you believe that you are justified in eliminating them at your whim.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Telling someone who isn't one of the Elect to look for it might be the wrong way to phrase it. Maybe just be aware that it could be revealed unto you in the future. Regardless you wouldn't even have to do that.
If it will it will and if it won't it won't.
If it will it will and if it won't it won't.
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