Death in the garden. physical or spiritual?

gemcgrew said:

The word of God is a dividing sword (Hebrews 4:12).

Hobbs, what compels one man to leave it alone and another can't rest until answered?

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Maybe some have been moved to ask...just how "good" is the good in the good news?
Maybe someone won't let them settle for less?

Israel said:

Maybe some have been moved to ask...just how "good" is the good in the good news?
Maybe someone won't let them settle for less?

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For goodness sake.

hobbs27 said:

Preconceived beliefs are hard to overcome, but when things don't add up you must study, cause God's word is perfect.

Probably the biggest problem I have with the physical church today is their unwillingness to answer the tough questions...when I started asking about the rapture and end times in the church I was told to leave it alone, it didn't matter, and it would just cause division in the church.
God's word doesn't cause division...man does.

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And so did you remove yourself from the "physical church today" and cause a division? Just curious?
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Ok so I don't know if you have witnessed my post on what might be the other definition of "air"?
(1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.)

You indicated two possible meanings for the word "air". Quote{The word air has two greek roots. the first is ouranos, which is atmospheric air matt. 6:26; 8:20; 13:32, where the birds fly or higher. The word Paul uses is a noun aer according to strongs 109, it comes from the greek root verb aemi meaning "to breathe unconsciously, ie respire; by analogy to blow...which can be translated as "the eternal breathing air within you and that within our immediate proximity.} end quote.


I propose another one as well. The word cloud is metaphorical, I think you would agree. It means, as per its type in scripture, that God is about to do something or is doing something significant, or it is a precursor that God is doing or is about to do something significant.

Now since cloud is metaphorical in the sense applied by Paul, so is the word air.

So let me re-write the sentence as to the meaning I suggest. " Then we who are living will ( we here are believers, diciples, saved, who are alive etc ), as well as the resurrected saints ( those have died physically in Christ and now resurrected) , will all witness and be on Jesus' side ( of his party) and be part of what Jesus is about to do.

I hope you grasp this, not with the clinching of your hand, but grasp as a metaphor for capture by the mind or reason.

I might as well re-write as per Strongs idea on aer.

aer ( Strongs) :"to breathe unconsciously, ie respire; by analogy to blow...which can be translated as "the eternal breathing air within you and that within our immediate proximity.

air: (Gordo ) Air is a synonym of day, as in on that day the saints will know generally what is about to take place, ( or then they will know "what's in the air") or what is generally going to take place next regards our Lord settling matters once and for all with the beast( metaphor) or those who worshipped and took to siding ( metaphor) with their false God(s) and their false natures. Proximity between Jesus and believers is possibly the saints knowing the general will of God in significance and action on this day and might be what Strong was "driving"(metaphor) at.

Gordon,
Very good. We both agree about what it does not mean. And you are correct, it could be metaphorical, also the clouds are used to describe God moving or traveling. In the OT he traveled in the clouds. In the New Testament Jesus used the term to show his diety.

My main concern with putting this into the future..our future is whatever it was Paul was talking about, it was for the comfort of those wearily awaiting in that day, something was suppose to happen for them.

I suspect the return of Christ to announce the acceptance of the atonement and bring salvation to Many, and to put an end once and for all to the old covenant....I actually just realized Paul remained a practicing Jew, worshipping in the temple as did his father's dduring this study. To me this proves the 40 years between the cross and the temple destruction was a transitional era with both covenants in effect ...awaiting the end and final consummation of the old.

Did I seperate myself from the physical church today? Sadly , yes. I miss her so much, but have not been able to go back for a while....It's a long story, but let's just say my church put me in a leadership position in which I had to deal with all the ugliness most people never see...It was heart breaking to me, and I could use and appreciate prayer to help me find a new home. Thanks.

hobbs27 said:

Gordon,
Very good. We both agree about what it does not mean. And you are correct, it could be metaphorical, also the clouds are used to describe God moving or traveling. In the OT he traveled in the clouds. In the New Testament Jesus used the term to show his diety.

My main concern with putting this into the future..our future is whatever it was Paul was talking about, it was for the comfort of those wearily awaiting in that day, something was suppose to happen for them.

I suspect the return of Christ to announce the acceptance of the atonement and bring salvation to Many, and to put an end once and for all to the old covenant....I actually just realized Paul remained a practicing Jew, worshipping in the temple as did his father's dduring this study. To me this proves the 40 years between the cross and the temple destruction was a transitional era with both covenants in effect ...awaiting the end and final consummation of the old.

Did I seperate myself from the physical church today? Sadly , yes. I miss her so much, but have not been able to go back for a while....It's a long story, but let's just say my church put me in a leadership position in which I had to deal with all the ugliness most people never see...It was heart breaking to me, and I could use and appreciate prayer to help me find a new home. Thanks.

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Don't forget that there is a tradition with jews, and it can be found in scripture somewhere, whereby if they are without the temple, or in exile, they can break bread as sacrifice.

I could possibly make an argument that the old covenant is still in effect for some and therefore the destruction of the temple was basically sending the Hebrews into exile again. They had suffered this a few times before. They are still to that covenant.

I could possibly find cause that some Christians , although they are in Christ, practice their faith from a carrot and stick motivation and are said carnal or immature. They are perhaps still in the law, because they show greater respect for fear and their spiritual egos, in lieu of love motivated behaviors. They are guarded regards the teachings of Jesus...having arguments that they might or might not work in there "this old world."

I have known people who have judged congregations and denominations by first impression from the remarks of the ushers, or some pastor reply or sermon. That kind of judging is not reliable as an assessment of "all the problems and short comings" of the church. I'll be direct, as a prayer is direct, more than not "you" are the problem! in such cases.

Most churches, congragations, today are willing to answer questions. Some answers may be way out there, some not.

And whoever offered this advise was a bit spot on. Quote{when I started asking about the rapture and end times in the church I was told to leave it alone, it didn't matter, and it would just cause division in the church.} end quote.

I would like to offer this as well. End times, pre, post, pret, sideways, unsidedown, it might not really matter in the grand scheme of salvation for now. That it was or will be, we will know when we get there or to heaven. In the mean time I will pray that every blessing you hope for and every blessing you know nothing about, that they all be given to you in Christ. Reciprocate I need even more than this some days. We all need to practice patience with others and ourselves in a loving kind of way.

Blessings bros.

gordon 2 said:

Don't forget that there is a tradition with jews, and it can be found in scripture somewhere, whereby if they are without the temple, or in exile, they can break bread as sacrifice.

I could possibly make an argument that the old covenant is still in effect for some and therefore the destruction of the temple was basically sending the Hebrews into exile again. They had suffered this a few times before. They are still to that covenant.,

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I would be interested in participating in that discussion someday if you decide to raise it..
,

Gordon said:

I could possibly find cause that some Christians , although they are in Christ, practice their faith from a carrot and stick motivation and are said carnal or immature. They are perhaps still in the law, because they show greater respect for fear and their spiritual egos, in lieu of love motivated behaviors. They are guarded regards the teachings of Jesus...having arguments that they might or might not work in there "this old world."

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Too many of our brethren burden themselves with OT law in this glorious NT world..agreed.

Gordon said:

have known people who have judged congregations and denominations by first impression from the remarks of the ushers, or some pastor reply or sermon. That kind of judging is not reliable as an assessment of "all the problems and short comings" of the church. I'll be direct, as a prayer is direct, more than not "you" are the problem! in such cases.

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Again, agreed and in the past I am guilty as charged. There's still some things that would be a quick turnoff, but I've only ever just got up and walked out on service once, and I m growing less picky.

Gordon said:

Nost churches, congragations, today are willing to answer questions. Some answers may be way out there, some not.

And whoever offered this advise was a bit spot on. Quote{when I started asking about the rapture and end times in the church I was told to leave it alone, it didn't matter, and it would just cause division in the church.} end quote.

I would like to offer this as well. End times, pre, post, pret, sideways, unsidedown, it might not really matter in the grand scheme of salvation for now. That it was or will be, we will know when we get there or to heaven. In the mean time I will pray that every blessing you hope for and every blessing you know nothing about, that they all be given to you in Christ. Reciprocate I need even more than this some days. We all need to practice patience with others and ourselves in a loving kind of way.

Blessings bros.

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Gordon, I think you will agree, where the pre,post,a mill, pret comes into play mostly is not on the other side of eternity, but this side. I see my pre- brothers and sisters living out their days in constant worry and sadness. They are worried everytime an earthquake happens or a new war is waging that the end is near...and all of their doctrine is easily defeated in scripture.

My task is to learn how to show them just how great the present kingdom is, how great our victorious Lord Jesus truly is, and that He has already been crowned King of Kings, and Satan has no power on them for the Gospel is here. Christianity is in need of a new reformation away from what's weighing it down---( pre- dispensationalism).
It's not because I think I'm smarter, Its not because I think they are dumb, it's because I love them, and I know the unnecessary burden they are carrying...I carried it once myself, getting away from it was the 2nd greatest path my Lord has ever sent me on.

hobbs27 said:

I would be interested in participating in that discussion someday if you decide to raise it..
,
Too many of our brethren burden themselves with OT law in this glorious NT world..agreed.


Again, agreed and in the past I am guilty as charged. There's still some things that would be a quick turnoff, but I've only ever just got up and walked out on service once, and I m growing less picky.



Gordon, I think you will agree, where the pre,post,a mill, pret comes into play mostly is not on the other side of eternity, but this side. I see my pre- brothers and sisters living out their days in constant worry and sadness. They are worried everytime an earthquake happens or a new war is waging that the end is near...and all of their doctrine is easily defeated in scripture.

My task is to learn how to show them just how great the present kingdom is, how great our victorious Lord Jesus truly is, and that He has already been crowned King of Kings, and Satan has no power on them for the Gospel is here. Christianity is in need of a new reformation away from what's weighing it down---( pre- dispensationalism).
It's not because I think I'm smarter, Its not because I think they are dumb, it's because I love them, and I know the unnecessary burden they are carrying...I carried it once myself, getting away from it was the 2nd greatest path my Lord has ever sent me on.

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Then you'll have to carry "their" pack for a few leagues. You and I are the only ones who can "disown" others, even if we believe they have disowned us.
We can keep fellowship in the spirit despite the seeming disregard others may have of our vision, we needn't ever be too quick to dust off our feet.
I think I understand about the unnecessary burdens part, a little, we see how the Lord has destroyed the carrot and stick mentality, (as Gordon put it), yet now, beginning to rejoice in its freedom, seem to see others still living there and feel a compelling to help them along.
It's an interesting journey, this.
For if we be honest (perhaps) we may see it was never "us" that got us here, though at the first we may indeed be tempted to believe it was "because" of much study, prayer, diligence, piety...basically all the things we like to take to ourselves as a show of our devotion.
The seeing of "what is" NOW has all come through the labor of another.
And the learning of rest in that place you may discover does far more in the spirit than all our exegesis and fine arguments.
The "is" part of "Jesus is Lord" alone shatters all the "will be's" "someday soons" "I really hope this is true" elements we may believe we see in the confessions of others.
You may be surprised at the ones you end up speaking to, when wanting to "go to" a certain peoples...the Lord instead has a whole other lot waiting eagerly to hear of how one like you can live in a place of no burden.
Like Jesus, like Peter, like Paul, you may marvel at where seeds of faith have been sewn, though first thinking they "should be" where first you may have been inclined to believe you'd find them. Or want to. Or where your arguments, you believe, would be most easily presented, and logically embraced.
The seeming "paths" we take, or are better, given, are for the plotting out of a wholeness, a fullness we discover both in sufficiency, and need. The "everywhere" we place our feet, from the seeming different paths in faith we trod begins a work of weed killing, till we, as all who have gone before have learned, what once grew high to obscure our fellows in our sight, is now laid low, and we simply see our friends with us, exploring heavenly places.

Thanks Israel for your wisdom. Your words can be very motivational.

Israel said:

Then you'll have to carry "their" pack for a few leagues. You and I are the only ones who can "disown" others, even if we believe they have disowned us.
We can keep fellowship in the spirit despite the seeming disregard others may have of our vision, we needn't ever be too quick to dust off our feet.
I think I understand about the unnecessary burdens part, a little, we see how the Lord has destroyed the carrot and stick mentality, (as Gordon put it), yet now, beginning to rejoice in its freedom, seem to see others still living there and feel a compelling to help them along.
It's an interesting journey, this.
For if we be honest (perhaps) we may see it was never "us" that got us here, though at the first we may indeed be tempted to believe it was "because" of much study, prayer, diligence, piety...basically all the things we like to take to ourselves as a show of our devotion.
The seeing of "what is" NOW has all come through the labor of another.
And the learning of rest in that place you may discover does far more in the spirit than all our exegesis and fine arguments.
The "is" part of "Jesus is Lord" alone shatters all the "will be's" "someday soons" "I really hope this is true" elements we may believe we see in the confessions of others.
You may be surprised at the ones you end up speaking to, when wanting to "go to" a certain peoples...the Lord instead has a whole other lot waiting eagerly to hear of how one like you can live in a place of no burden.
Like Jesus, like Peter, like Paul, you may marvel at where seeds of faith have been sewn, though first thinking they "should be" where first you may have been inclined to believe you'd find them. Or want to. Or where your arguments, you believe, would be most easily presented, and logically embraced.
The seeming "paths" we take, or are better, given, are for the plotting out of a wholeness, a fullness we discover both in sufficiency, and need. The "everywhere" we place our feet, from the seeming different paths in faith we trod begins a work of weed killing, till we, as all who have gone before have learned, what once grew high to obscure our fellows in our sight, is now laid low, and we simply see our friends with us, exploring heavenly places.

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Good stuff. I'd be interested in this as a topic someday. Jesus our Lord, Jesus Lord of our Kingdom.

This in reference to our role in it. What is our role in the Kingdom. What are we responsible for, if anything at all? Do the saints bring peace and justice to the world, to our communities, to life?

And Hobbs, I'm going to rearrange your words a little bit, to make a point.

" Christianity is in need of a new reformation away from what's weighing it down--I see my pre- brothers and sisters living out their days in constant worry and sadness. They are worried everytime an earthquake happens or a new war is waging that the end is near..."

In some ways I agree with you. Christians should not be overwhelmed and overly preoccupied by end times. The God that I know is not. Or is He?

Alot of people would find it hard to believe this:
"Satan has no power on them for the Gospel is here."

Why? Again I'd be interested in a study on the importance of the Kingdom in the lives of Christians and the "world" in the here and now? We could perhaps share our ideas on what it is, where it's from, and why it is?

I will be honest with you. My religious community's backgound is not preoccupied with end times and I have often known that other Christian communities around mine are more so ( preoccupied by end times). Some go even as far a placing God's Kingdom after end times and saying that Jesus is not God all for their preoccupation with Revelations, and mention of end times by the apostles.

So why does it seem to me that a lot of christian communites, who have their start for the Reformation or from reformation communities are more preoccupied with "end time" or eschatology than more orthodox communities?
What gives? Why? Someone? ( I'm not interested in who's right or who's wrong answers. I'm interested in what is.) During the times of the great revivals in North America was "end times" stressed overly?

Questions, Questions, Questions, they sound in the gate of Wesley's horse and in the the clips and the clops of our good pastor's ear.??? And what was in the tap of the sheets against her masts and in the sounds of faith of the Mayflower's cargo?

Me? I think I may just be beginning to learn to love my wife.

Israel said:

Me? I think I may just be beginning to learn to love my wife.

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LOL... Then you'll be the fun-da-mental- ist to the progress of discussion. I can count on you for the basics and taking out the garbage?

gordon 2 said:

LOL... Then you'll be the fun-da-mental- ist to the progress of discussion. I can count on you for the basics and taking out the garbage?

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I am just learning about the garbage...I guess I thought it emptied itself.

Gordon,
The why some protestants are more occupied. I' ll take a guess at it, well my observations anyway.

Your community believe is in a life long work in salvation through God's grace which allows for patience. Most protestants believe in a moment of salvation that never leaves. The end times preaching is used as a scare tactic, they use it to scare people into professing Christ. That moment is important for protestants...The end is near get ready. If I had better than 3g connection where I'm currently at I would insert a funny video from YouTube of Dr. BL Gregory titled the Lord is coming soon.....look it up.

hobbs27 said:

Gordon,
The why some protestants are more occupied. I' ll take a guess at it, well my observations anyway.

Your community believe is in a life long work in salvation through God's grace which allows for patience. Most protestants believe in a moment of salvation that never leaves. The end times preaching is used as a scare tactic, they use it to scare people into professing Christ. That moment is important for protestants...The end is near get ready. If I had better than 3g connection where I'm currently at I would insert a funny video from YouTube of Dr. BL Gregory titled the Lord is coming soon.....look it up.

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This one?

It's not unusual to hear "get ready"...when the instruction is to:
"be ready".

Israel said:

It's not unusual to hear "get ready"...when the instruction is to:
"be ready".

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That's fundamental. Thanks

gordon 2 said:

This one?

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Yep that's it. That just cracks me up.

Israel said:

It's not unusual to hear "get ready"...when the instruction is to:
"be ready".

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is to, or was to?

http://asiteforthelord.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/eschatologicaltimestatements.pdf

For what its worth I just listened to a preacher explain why the need and effectiveness for purposes of salvation of "fire and brimstone" sermons. According to him, they are an honest description of what awaits the lost, who know not Christ or God. The point is to shake a lost sinner into seeing who he is, who he is not, and why he is and what he/she is. After this has been made perfectly clear, salvation from their state, through Jesus for the cross is made perfectly clear.

Said, old time preachers would come into a town and preach H E Double Hockey Sticks for three weeks and then on the last two days they would preach on the love of God, his grace and salvation. He said whole godless communities would flock to Christ for this sort of preaching.

On the other hand he said, this was not the kind of preaching done on people who knew Christ.

Interesting... So Dr. B L Gregory just might be anointed after all.

hobbs27 said:

is to, or was to?

http://asiteforthelord.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/eschatologicaltimestatements.pdf

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I read the PDF on eschatological times.

Did it ever occur to you, ( I'm sure it did) that saved people are judged for cleaving to their shepard, this faith is accounted to them as righteousness and those who dismiss salvation with conviction are judged also, and being unrighteous in this way, they are creatures to wrath?

So there is a judgement being done in this "old world". But for now it rains on both the righteous and the unrighteous.

To my mind this world is judged because Jesus has returned to judge it especially after the destruction of the Temple and the virile construction of the new Christian church ( the new corporate and spiritual body of believers) of which Jesus is the spiritual head. This is why no one should ask if Jesus is here or there bodily at this time.

So Jesus as head of the church, ministering through the church, through scripture, through the saints is a form of judgement. It is the establishing of what is a good man from what is not one. It is establishing who exactly is willing to turn his natures, spirit and body to Christ, to God.

But ours is not the last judgment, to my mind. It is not the last judgment Jesus will do. There will be one last judgement, where the bodily resurrected saints and those still living in Christ at this coming will be separated once and for all from man who as far as he worshiped, worshiped the creature and not God.

It will be not unlike the days of Noah.

So what I'm getting at is did you ever consider that two events are being talked about and understood by a lot of people as if it was one event? Our days are a type of the days yet to come. Today are the days where man's spirit is judged and later all of man will be judged both in spirit and in the flesh. Today man is given the choice to be freed from the world of wrath--- spiritually now, but totally ( spirit and body) in the future.

Just as the Hebrews who made it to God's promised land is a type of our present day Kingdom in Christ, our present day kingdom in Christ is a type of the final kingdom in the "all in all". And by all I mean all or both body and soul, soul ( spirit) and body in a face to face with all the bodily resurrected and those still living, or the flock and Jesus.

Just as were the consequences for Noah's flood, was a type of the Hebrews crossing the Red Sea and its consequences, and that this as a type has its consequences for our baptism in Christ--there must be an end to this because all these types are ministered to man yet captive of the world of sin.

The general resurrection will solve the body-spirit problem we keep having. Heaven, as far as we see it as a place where the spirit ( only) of the saints go to, cannot be our final destination. Jesus which is our example resurrected both in body and in spirit. And as my example, I think that's how I am meant to be before him, my God.

My prayer of salvation it goes something like this: By faith despite my pea size mind and even smaller heart, in a childlike kind of way, I view someone as saved as Adam and Eve were before the fall, a man of spirit and clay in intense communion with God, before the tempter did his tricks. The general resurrection and judgement will get rid of the tempter once and for all, and restore Gordie to the garden like a deer is fitted to the fields and the forests even today--- and as per God's original design.