It's official

WaltL1 said:

Thread Killer

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A little dose of reality sometimes has that effect.

Most of the conversations are very well represented with intelligent in depth expressions of personal thought and then just as it seems like it is beyond the fantasy realm someone has to throw in a reference to a fable and folklore. To me it just detracts from all of the great stuff they had posted before that. I get a feeling of being let down just when I thought some progress was being made.

I feels like I am watching the Shutter Island. Just when it seems like there is hope and progress is made the character snaps back out if reality and into fantasy.
Disclaimer* I DO realize the movie is fictional and use it merely as an example to relate to, not as if it is fact.

Artfuldodger said:

Adam and Eve only knew God. They were naked but not ashamed. They wanted to know "good & evil" rather than to know "God."
After eating the fruit, God opened their spiritual eyes and they saw that they were naked. Then they were ashamed. Knowing good & evil brings shame.
Spirit gives LIFE. That is the message of the New Testament.

When the Old Testament passed away the Law was done away with. Where there is no Law, there is no sin. If there is no sin, there is no death. Christ defeated death.

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bullethead said:

The story of Adam and Eve is just that, a story, like the rest of the OT and NT.

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Art,

Down here, that mess never happened and we can only discuss it during pretend time.

bullethead said:

A little dose of reality sometimes has that effect..

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Let's not kid ourselves. That not a dose of reality. It's a dose of pure opinion which is exactly why it's a thread killer. It takes us back to square one.....a square that's been beat to death and holds no promise of anything but spouting memes back and forth between us.

The best discussions here are the ones that go into the nuts and bolts of why we believe such and such. I've been here a little over a year. In that year I haven't budged one bit from my beliefs, but I've come to respect you guys and your position a great deal for precisely the reason that our discussions got past the "Is not! Is too." stage of childhood arguments. If we can't get past that, for all practical intents and purposes, we might as well be upstairs arguing dogmatically over some minuscule irrelevant doctrine. Just my two cents.

Artfuldodger said:

Adam and Eve only knew God. They were naked but not ashamed. They wanted to know "good & evil" rather than to know "God."
After eating the fruit, God opened their spiritual eyes and they saw that they were naked. Then they were ashamed. Knowing good & evil brings shame.
Spirit gives LIFE. That is the message of the New Testament.

When the Old Testament passed away the Law was done away with. Where there is no Law, there is no sin. If there is no sin, there is no death. Christ defeated death.

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Do the Ten Commandments still apply then? Will I not still get in serious spiritual trouble for making me up a big mess of graven images or hoeing my taters on Sunday?

NCHillbilly said:

Do the Ten Commandments still apply then? Will I not still get in serious spiritual trouble for making me up a big mess of graven images or hoeing my taters on Sunday?

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Hoeing taters on Sunday! OH SNAP!!! You toast Brother. No hope for you. That's THE BIGGIE. Better go head and invest in asbestos coffin and thermal powered air-conditioned skivvies.

SemperFiDawg said:

Let's not kid ourselves. That not a dose of reality. It's a dose of pure opinion which is exactly why it's a thread killer. It takes us back to square one.....a square that's been beat to death and holds no promise of anything but spouting memes back and forth between us.

The best discussions here are the ones that go into the nuts and bolts of why we believe such and such. I've been here a little over a year. In that year I haven't budged one bit from my beliefs, but I've come to respect you guys and your position a great deal for precisely the reason that our discussions got past the "Is not! Is too." stage of childhood arguments. If we can't get past that, for all practical intents and purposes, we might as well be upstairs arguing dogmatically over some minuscule irrelevant doctrine. Just my two cents.

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Can I tell you why I don't believe in talking snakes?

ambush80 said:

Can I tell you why I don't believe in talking snakes?

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You kidding? That's why I came here in the first place. I'm all ears.

NCHillbilly said:

Do the Ten Commandments still apply then? Will I not still get in serious spiritual trouble for making me up a big mess of graven images or hoeing my taters on Sunday?

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Well from here it get's a little confusing. If the whole point of the Old Testament was to show us we couldn't stop sinning and need a Messiah, then we need a Messiah. If he took on all of the sin in the whole wide world and then defeated death, sin died too.
If one accepts this as truth in the form of believing Jesus did what he said he did, then you are granted eternal life. The salvation is from death. The wages of sin is death. Jesus defeated both. The Law is abolished yet I must still follow the commandment of loving God and brother. I must forgive others.
I would assume my sins were washed, the Holy Spirit moves in and guides me by producing fruit.

The part I don't fully understand is why I still sin. I can only assume I still sin but they don't count. My sins were paid for.

Yet if we read in scripture we will all be judged by our deeds. In Romans people who knew God quit worshiping God and started worshiping idols. God abandoned them.
There is a lot in Revelation about being judged. We have these sin lists from Paul that will keep one out of the Kingdom. I hope he is listing them to say "and such were some of you, but you were washed' or "if you judge people who do the sins on this list, you are equally guilty, you condemn yourself."

I must admit there is a lot about Christianity I don't understand. All I know is I can't quit sinning and needed the washing. This was my repentance.
If I must now quit sinning then I'm doomed. That being said, I don't believe I could now quit worshiping God and start worshiping idols without being turned into a heterosexual who lusts after men. That could lead to God abandoning me.
It would be better for me to have never known God than to know God and quit worshiping him.

SemperFiDawg said:

Hoeing taters on Sunday! OH SNAP!!! You toast Brother. No hope for you. That's THE BIGGIE. Better go head and invest in asbestos coffin and thermal powered air-conditioned skivvies.

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In all seriousness, it hasn't been that many years ago in my neck of the woods that someone who had the gall to mow their yard, work in their garden, wash their car, or some such on Sunday would have been an absolute object of scandal, and would have been socially ostracized by the good folks of the community. It will still get you talked about behind your back by the older folks. We weren't even allowed to fish on Sunday when I was a kid.

NCHillbilly said:

In all seriousness, it hasn't been that many years ago in my neck of the woods that someone who had the gall to mow their yard, work in their garden, wash their car, or some such on Sunday would have been an absolute object of scandal, and would have been socially ostracized by the good folks of the community. It will still get you talked about behind your back by the older folks. We weren't even allowed to fish on Sunday when I was a kid.

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When I was growing up until about 8 we lived under my grandmothers authority. She didn't even cook on Sunday. Sunday dinner was prepared on Sat. On Sunday you went to church then came home and sat around. That's it. Period.

Now I come home from Church and piddle doing odd, small tasks that got missed during the week, but the older I get I can honestly say I see a bit of wisdom in resting a bit. It's bad when Monday rolls around and I wake up tired from working like a dog Sunday.

ambush80 said:

Can I tell you why I don't believe in talking snakes?

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Because snakes cant talk?
Just guessing

NCHillbilly said:

Do the Ten Commandments still apply then? Will I not still get in serious spiritual trouble for making me up a big mess of graven images or hoeing my taters on Sunday?

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What does Sunday have to do with the ten commandments?

hobbs27 said:

What does Sunday have to do with the ten commandments?

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Well as others have mentioned, back when some of us were young people still thought we had to live by the ten commandments. Sunday or Sabbath was a day for worship and rest. After Church most folks didn't go to restaurants and stores. In fact there weren't too many stores even open. We also weren't allowed to do any worldly hobbies, yard work, etc. After our Sunday dinner, we would all take a nap or just sit around on the front porch. Kids still played games and such.
We never went as for as Moms not cooking. With each generation things changed and the more worldly things we could do like cooking, golf and fishing.

Artfuldodger said:

Well as others have mentioned, back when some of us were young people still thought we had to live by the ten commandments. Sunday or Sabbath was a day for worship and rest. After Church most folks didn't go to restaurants and stores. In fact there weren't too many stores even open. We also weren't allowed to do any worldly hobbies, yard work, etc. After our Sunday dinner, we would all take a nap or just sit around on the front porch. Kids still played games and such.
We never went as for as Moms not cooking. With each generation things changed and the more worldly things we could do like cooking, golf and fishing.

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I know, but the Sabbath is Saturday which answers the Op question. We don't follow the ten commandments. We follow the law of Christ, to Love one another.

hobbs27 said:

I know, but the Sabbath is Saturday which answers the Op question. We don't follow the ten commandments. We follow the law of Christ, to Love one another.

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For Jewish folks it is. For 99% of Christians except for Seventh-Day Adventists and maybe a few others, Sunday is considered the Sabbath Day/day of rest. Or at least that's what I and everybody I know was taught at church.

SemperFiDawg said:

"Is not! Is too.".

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But that is all there is. Some folks here like to develop that into 4 or 12 paragraphs, we can bend over backwards making sure explaining why the other is mistaken, throw in some of these, but "Is too, Is not" is all there is here.

drippin' rock said:

But that is all there is. Some folks here like to develop that into 4 or 12 paragraphs, we can bend over backwards making sure explaining why the other is mistaken, throw in some of these, but "Is too, Is not" is all there is here.

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I'm going to disagree.
For instance I don't argue that there "is not".
I argue against the arguments that are made that says there "is".
One is focused on the existence of God.
The other is focused on the argument being used to claim he does.
To me anyway, that's a pretty big difference.

SemperFiDawg said:

Let's not kid ourselves. That not a dose of reality. It's a dose of pure opinion which is exactly why it's a thread killer. It takes us back to square one.....a square that's been beat to death and holds no promise of anything but spouting memes back and forth between us.

The best discussions here are the ones that go into the nuts and bolts of why we believe such and such. I've been here a little over a year. In that year I haven't budged one bit from my beliefs, but I've come to respect you guys and your position a great deal for precisely the reason that our discussions got past the "Is not! Is too." stage of childhood arguments. If we can't get past that, for all practical intents and purposes, we might as well be upstairs arguing dogmatically over some minuscule irrelevant doctrine. Just my two cents.

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SFD with all due respect regarding Adam and Eve you are kidding yourself if you truly have yourself convinced they were the first two humans and the story is as told in the Bible. The evidence does not support that claim.
The problem here is that too many people jump over "square one" which I call Evidence and go right to "square two" which is Claims without ever tightening the nuts and bolts that hold square one and square two together.
I am all for the Is Not vs Is Too when either can be and is backed up. I can see the value in fables and parables when used as such. When they are used as fact I would like to know how and when they became fact.

If God made Adam and Eve and the story goes as told in the Bible, he was a few million years late to the lets make a human party.

WaltL1 said:

I'm going to disagree.
For instance I don't argue that there "is not".
I argue against the arguments that are made that says there "is".
One is focused on the existence of God.
The other is focused on the argument being used to claim he does.
To me anyway, that's a pretty big difference.

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Tru dat.

SemperFiDawg said:

You kidding? That's why I came here in the first place. I'm all ears.

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As Walt pointed out "snakes can't talk".

As an apologist you have to at least offer up a rational way that a snake could talk. Describe a physiological change that would allow such a thing, or some other explanation, in an apologetic manner that explains the phenomena. Don't be glib. Do your best as a rational, intelligent person to explain it. Then we will all discuss the merits of your explanation like grown ups.