have done what is evil?

Artfuldodger · Mar 27, 2015

Hebrews 9:27
26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

If this has already happened, where is my hope? I wasn't here when Jesus appeared the second time for salvation. I wasn't here to eagerly await; alive or in the ground.

hobbs27 · Mar 27, 2015

Artfuldodger said:
Even though Revelation was to specific people and has already happened, we don't ignore it's message?

Death, salvation, second death, judgement?

Will any part of Revelation repeat itself for us?

The letter is written to the seven churches of things which MUST soon come to pass. It also includes instruction for their present state, and immediate future for when the things would be fulfilled. That's the eschatological interpretation, but there's also a soteriological interpretation, Rev. 22 sums it up...That Ch. Is where the church was after 70 ad and always will be, and that is mentioned throughout the letter.

hobbs27 · Mar 27, 2015

Artfuldodger said:
Hebrews 9:27
26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

If this has already happened, where is my hope? I wasn't here when Jesus appeared the second time for salvation. I wasn't here to eagerly await; alive or in the ground.

You're reaping the benefits of this now. Notice they were at the moment ...maybe a year or so away from the consummation of the ages....Old Covenant age. Jesus was coming back to complete the atonement and announce salvation. In that Hades and death were consumed, and we now have eternal life if we take of the water of life freely....(Not to get into a back and forth about if it our taking or Christ giving before the foundation of the earth) just referring to what is said in Revelation 22.

welderguy · Mar 27, 2015

Artfuldodger said:
Did you mean 8:1?/QUOTE]

Yes.thanks Art.I fixed it.

welderguy · Mar 27, 2015

Artfuldodger said:
Did you mean 8:1?
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

No condemnation what about judgment?

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

There will be a judgment for every person that has ever lived.But those whom Jesus died for will be pronounced not guilty.HALLELUIAH!!! What a Saviour!!!!

Artfuldodger · Mar 27, 2015

welderguy said:
There will be a judgment for every person that has ever lived.But those whom Jesus died for will be pronounced not guilty.HALLELUIAH!!! What a Saviour!!!!

Luke 6:37King James Version (KJV)
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.

2 Corinthians 5:10
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad”

Romans 14:10-12
But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written: ‘As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.’ So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God.

I don't see the point of a judgment if our sins don't count.
I hope you are correct. It just seems like there are a lot of verses directed towards Christians that don't pertain to Christians.

I've heard some say it's more like and awards ceremony than an actual judgment.

Romans 8:37-38
37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Grace trumps judgment?

Artfuldodger · Mar 27, 2015

I realize grace gives us a way out of sin. I realize we should try to live a sinless life. If every Christian feels this is true, why are we always judging people who are saved by grace but don't live up to our standards of repentance of sins? Especially as related to Paul' sin list that will keep one out of the Kingdom. Everyone has his own struggle with certain sins. Sanctification by the Holy Spirit might take a lifetime such as maybe with a drunkard. Only God knows our heart.
Even though we are told that by judging we are condemning ourselves because we are equally guilty.

Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

New Living Translation
You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things.

One says judge the other says condemn? Does judge means condemn? If we judge a brother Christian, are we condemning him? In other words do you ever say, that man isn't a Christian. You aren't just judging him, you are also condemning him.
Then by this same process you condemn yourself.

welderguy · Mar 27, 2015

We should be very careful not to judge motives.(the state of someone's heart).But we must,(also carefully) judge fruits.Not maliciously, but lovingly, even those that we consider our enemies.Who knows, we may help them out of the ditch they're in.The bible tells us "love covers a multitude of sins".
As far as the final judgment,I believe all of our sins are gonna be exposed before God in His courtroom.But Jesus, our mediator will be our advocate(lawyer), and He will stand between us and the Father and will say behold the sheep that you gave me and I have lost none.And He will say come ye blest of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you.

Artfuldodger · Mar 27, 2015

welderguy said:
We should be very careful not to judge motives.(the state of someone's heart).But we must,(also carefully) judge fruits.Not maliciously, but lovingly, even those that we consider our enemies.Who knows, we may help them out of the ditch they're in.The bible tells us "love covers a multitude of sins".
As far as the final judgment,I believe all of our sins are gonna be exposed before God in His courtroom.But Jesus, our mediator will be our advocate(lawyer), and He will stand between us and the Father and will say behold the sheep that you gave me and I have lost none.And He will say come ye blest of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you.

I've remember reading where God would judge unbelievers and Jesus will judge Christians. It's weird if they are the same equal but separate entity.

Unbelievers have already been judged. I understand the judgements aren't about salvation.

The second judgment is that of unbelievers who will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). This judgment does not determine salvation, either. Everyone at the Great White Throne is an unbeliever who has rejected Christ in life and is therefore already doomed to the lake of fire.

Believers are judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Romans 14:10-12). Every believer will give an account of himself, and the Lord will judge the decisions he made—including those concerning issues of conscience. This judgment does not determine salvation, which is by faith alone.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/judgment.html#ixzz3VdioVBcF

Maybe the Great White Throne Judgement was for Jerusalem beings it was in Revelation.

Artfuldodger · Mar 27, 2015

God Appointed Jesus to Judge
God appointed Jesus as Judge of the living and dead.

"And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead" (Acts 10:42).

As our judge, Jesus also has authority to forgive sins. Everyone who believes in His name is forgiven.

"Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins" (Acts 10:43).

We Must Stand Before Jesus in Judgment
Paul tells us we must stand before the judgment seat of Christ, to be judged for our deeds.

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad" (2 Cor. 5:10).

http://www.biblestudyguide.org/articles/jesus-who-is-jesus-series/who-is-jesus-judge.htm

Artfuldodger · Mar 27, 2015

Related to death being conquered;

1 Corinthians 15:51-54:
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

When will or did this happen? We will not all sleep. Does this mean some will stay in the grave? Why will we all be changed or if it already happened, was everyone dead raised imperishable and changed?

Then; "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory."
What does that mean?

I guess I need to look at that link Hobbs offered. My main questions are why was there a physical resurrection in 70 AD and we don't need a resurrection? Was every dead person good or bad resurrected? Why would unbelievers need to be physically resurrected just to return to the grave? Was it just to get Judged?
Why didn't the Cross cover Judgment, you either believe or you don't? Unbelievers are already condemned.
I'm pretty sure this resurrection I just described was physical regardless of if it has already happened or if it is in the future.

Now for Futurists? Why would we go to Heaven or He11 at our physical death just to return for a physical resurrection? Would sinners need a body in order to burn in he11 for an eternity? Would a believer need a body to enjoy Heaven for eternity?

Artfuldodger · Mar 27, 2015

Romans 5:18-19
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

If Adam condemned all and Jesus justified life to all men, what did or does the "Resurrection" accomplish? What does it do in regards to salvation? How doe it affect the saved? What doe it do to the condemned? Does it have anything to do with judgment?
If it does, then how can we go to Heaven, eternal death, eternal life, or He11 before any judgement after a future resurrection?

Artfuldodger · Mar 28, 2015

welderguy said:
We should be very careful not to judge motives.(the state of someone's heart).But we must,(also carefully) judge fruits.Not maliciously, but lovingly, even those that we consider our enemies.Who knows, we may help them out of the ditch they're in.The bible tells us "love covers a multitude of sins".
As far as the final judgment,I believe all of our sins are gonna be exposed before God in His courtroom.But Jesus, our mediator will be our advocate(lawyer), and He will stand between us and the Father and will say behold the sheep that you gave me and I have lost none.And He will say come ye blest of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you.

Is this judgment with God as Judge and Jesus as our mediator(lawyer) Biblical? What defense is there for our sins? How can Jesus be our defense? What would he say to God?
Why is all of this necessary if we already have salvation? Is it for awards; stars in our crowns, better mansions closer to God?
Maybe Jesus will say; "Father, this one right here has been washed. He believes, send him on through."

We talk a lot about grace vs deeds then we add back into the equation accountability, judging, and deeds.
It appears this judgment is more than a formality as some speculate.

hobbs27 · Mar 28, 2015

Artfuldodger said:
My main questions are why was there a physical resurrection in 70 AD and we don't need a resurrection?

Adam was placed in the garden. In the garden Adam had eternal life ( He was with God)
When Adam took of the fruit in that day he died...( taken out of the garden..seperated from God) It's a spiritual death. The curse of that spiritual death ran till Jesus redeemed us To eternal life. Therefore from Adam to Jesus everyone that died carried sin with them and were placed in Hades. Hades was a holding place for the dead, both the righteous and unrighteous.

When Christ completed the atonement and made a way for us to be with God, that spiritual death was done away with and Hades was emptied. That was Israel's hope as Paul called it. That event was the resurrection.

Why would we ever be resurrected from the dead,or be referred to as the dead ones, if Christ completed what He came to do and brought eternal life?

Artfuldodger · Mar 28, 2015

hobbs27 said:
Adam was placed in the garden. In the garden Adam had eternal life ( He was with God)
When Adam took of the fruit in that day he died...( taken out of the garden..seperated from God) It's a spiritual death. The curse of that spiritual death ran till Jesus redeemed us To eternal life. Therefore from Adam to Jesus everyone that died carried sin with them and were placed in Hades. Hades was a holding place for the dead, both the righteous and unrighteous.

When Christ completed the atonement and made a way for us to be with God, that spiritual death was done away with and Hades was emptied. That was Israel's hope as Paul called it. That event was the resurrection.

Why would we ever be resurrected from the dead,or be referred to as the dead ones, if Christ completed what He came to do and brought eternal life?

Were the ones in Hades just spirits/souls and resurrected as such? If there is no more death(spiritual) as Jesus brought eternal life, why doesn't everyone after Jesus, who brought eternal life, receive it? What happens to them when they die a physical death? How can they die a spiritual death if Jesus Christ completed what he came to do?

hobbs27 · Mar 28, 2015

Artfuldodger said:
Related to death being conquered;

1 Corinthians 15:51-54:
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

When will or did this happen? We will not all sleep. Does this mean some will stay in the grave? Why will we all be changed or if it already happened, was everyone dead raised imperishable and changed?

Then; "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory."
What does that mean?

I guess I need to look at that link Hobbs offered. My main questions are why was there a physical resurrection in 70 AD and we don't need a resurrection? Was every dead person good or bad resurrected? Why would unbelievers need to be physically resurrected just to return to the grave? Was it just to get Judged?
Why didn't the Cross cover Judgment, you either believe or you don't? Unbelievers are already condemned.
I'm pretty sure this resurrection I just described was physical regardless of if it has already happened or if it is in the future.

Now for Futurists? Why would we go to Heaven or He11 at our physical death just to return for a physical resurrection? Would sinners need a body in order to burn in he11 for an eternity? Would a believer need a body to enjoy Heaven for eternity?

Artfuldodger said:
Were the ones in Hades just spirits/souls and resurrected as such? If there is no more death(spiritual) as Jesus brought eternal life, why doesn't everyone after Jesus, who brought eternal life, receive it? What happens to them when they die a physical death? How can they die a spiritual death if Jesus Christ completed what he came to do?

Yes. Jesus is the only one promised to resurrect in the flesh.

Only those that enter into covenant with Jesus have eternal life, but it's here .

Adam was cursed because he broke covenant with God.
Jerusalem was destroyed because it broke covenant with God.

Only those in Covenant ( saved folks) have eternal life, and this covenant we are in reigns forever and Jesus has washed us of sin so that we may be presented to the Father, others will be departed for He never knew them.

centerpin fan · Mar 29, 2015

Artfuldodger said:
Were the ones in Hades just spirits/souls and resurrected as such? If there is no more death(spiritual) as Jesus brought eternal life, why doesn't everyone after Jesus, who brought eternal life, receive it? What happens to them when they die a physical death? How can they die a spiritual death if Jesus Christ completed what he came to do?

How many questions have you asked in this thread, AD?

Artfuldodger · Mar 29, 2015

centerpin fan said:
How many questions have you asked in this thread, AD?

More than answers. I'm trying to remove my futurist indoctrination and explore the Preterism beliefs without prejudice.
You ever realize how hard it is to accomplish something like this?
In doing so I've opened up some questions on judging. It appears that if death was thrown in the Lake of Fire at 70 AD and Jesus brought salvation then from that point on all would be saved. I'm not the only one who has seen this part of Preterism. We have Universal Preterists just as we have Universal Primitive Baptists.
Most of my questions center around these verses;

Hebrews 9:27
26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Hobbs says this 2nd appearance in relation to 70Ad only brought atonement for salvation. God didn't actually come to save anyone at this time, he actually destroyed. Jesus did this from Heaven, his 2nd coming was a proxy visit.
God destroyed by using the Roman Army. No stone was left unturned.
Due to this Atonement, salvation at that time allowed the souls/spirits of the dead to got through their individual spiritual resurrections and on to their individual judgement days. This was the resurrection of the dead in prophesy.

Hebrews 9:28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

No live Christians were brought home at the parousia. The only salvation was atonement. The "eager" await was for atonement. The only saints brought home at the second coming of Jesus were dead saints due to this proxy visit for atonement. No live person will go to Heaven. Only the spirits of dead saints can go to Heaven. This is where we are after the second coming in 70AD. From this point on no live person will go to Heaven. At the second coming in 70AD no live saints went to Heaven. Hebrews 9:27 tells us "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once."
Jesus died before he went to Heaven. His Mother died before she went to Heaven. Were they both judged?

Futurist say Jesus must wait for all of the elect to come to him before the second coming. Why?
It appears to be working under the Preterist view. People are being saved every day.

This is my view of Preterism and might not be just as Hobbs believe. I apologize if I'm too far off base.

I can't really say this is any more confusing than the futurist view.

Artfuldodger · Mar 29, 2015

Hello, my name is Art and I'm a Futurist. I've lived my whole life in hope that Jesus will one day return and take us all home. I remember this song we'd sing; We'll work till Jesus comes and then we'll be gathered home."
This future second coming was a major part my religion. It gave me great hope and joy to be reunited with Jesus. Even if I was dead before he returned, I would come out of the grave to meet him.
I can remember as a small kid picturing myself coming out of the ground and on up into the sky to meet Jesus.
I read verses such as this;
Mark 13:26-27
26"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27"And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Now when I got older they taught me it wouldn't be quite the pretty picture that was painted to me in my youth. Jesus not only came to save, he also came to destroy. He came to Judge. Terrible things would happen, there will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth. The moon would turn red. It was described to me like a nuclear war that would slowly kill and destroy all except his sheep. His sheep still alive wouldn't die a physical death.

The good news in all of this was that at some point in all of this chaos, Jesus will separate all of his sheep from the goats. The sheep will finally have the salvation they'd hoped about. Finally they'd receive the salvation God promised. This separation would come in the form of a Judgement Day which will be a one day event for everyone. Then the earth will be totally destroyed or at least replaced with as a New Heaven or New Jerusalem. We would then live either in this New Heaven or the original Heaven in God's Kingdom. Jesus will then turn this Kingdom over to his Father and take his place at his Father's right hand.

Now this all made perfect sense to me until I learned about a hundred different scenarios as people tried to justify scripture with my story of the second coming.
Things like to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord. I heard preachers at funerals saying the deceased is now home with Jesus. I'm thinking, wait a minute, Jesus hasn't returned to get them yet. Well maybe they are in Abraham's Bosom awaiting the second coming.
But what about the "Great Judgement Day?" How did they get past that? Each of us has his own individual "Judgement Day."
I was also told we are in God's Kingdom already. But I remember something about Jesus needing to come back to set up this Kingdom. How do you explain that? Well we have various types of Kingdoms.God's Kingdom, Jesus' Kingdom, thy kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven. We have different stages of the Kingdom's development.
Finally and this is the most confusing part of the Futurist doctrine.
Why are we eagerly awaiting the second coming of Jesus? What do we need if for? What will it accomplish?
Why come back to earth for a resurrection & judgement of any sorts if I'm already in Heaven or He11? If I've already been judged. If the sheep have already been separated. What will be different after the second coming that we can't have now other than no more salvation being offered?
Why have I lived my lifetime eagerly waiting on Jesus to return when all I have to do is die a physical death and and my soul/spirit resurrects to Heaven?
I can assure you once I get there, I won't want to leave. Especially to come back for a body. Not even a spiritual body.

I can't really say this is any more confusing than the preterist view.

Artfuldodger · Mar 29, 2015

Didn't the Cross take care of Judgement? Didn't the Cross or 2nd coming take care of atonement? Hasn't death been defeated?
What can possibly be left?

Christ's atonement has passed. The Resurrection has passed.
If at the resurrection, all sin will end, the judgment (or sentence upon humans) will end, punishment (the he11 on earth) will end, and death (the ultimate punishment for Adamic sin) will
end. Will the elect then be saved through the work of Christ?

If all of this has already happened, then how can there not be Universal salvation from 70AD forward?

have done what is evil?

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