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Pretty stinging indictment on the Church in America
- Thread starter SemperFiDawg
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Miguel Cervantes
Jedi Master
I think it more odd that one of his faithful servants whom followed his instructions had a house and belongings where he could care for Mary, when charged to do so by Jesus. Despite how literal some may interpret the scripture.
Parable, metaphor, fable, inflection in order to incur thought towards moral behavior and justice. The Bible is full of them and Jesus used them well.
SemperFiDawg
Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
Going back and reading it, the story is recorded as a historic event, not a metaphor, parable, etc.
hobbs27
Senior Member
I think you've ignored what I've said anyways. Ad hominem attack after Ad hominem attack.
Still you have no scriptural basis for tithing in the New covenant.. No example whatsoever...and even if you got together with a friend or two, to attempt to demonstrate how tithing in the old covenant was a shadow of what we do today... It doesn't fit. Tithing was never every week... Tithing wasnt even money. Abraham tithed once in his entire life, and it was the spoils of war. The Pharisee tithed spices Like cumin and mint yet they were wealthy..
There was a time Money raising was involved though... Remember the selling of doves for sacrifice in the temple? Did Jesus approve or disapprove?
StriperAddict
Senior Member
A note more on law than tithing ...
Eyes trained on the law or eyes fixed on the Savior?
We simply refuse to trust that we can live out of our new hearts; no, we must add the rules to call us out and show up how well we're doing the Christian thing, tithing, etc.
What are the 10 commandments called under the new covenant? Ans: A ministry of condemnation, see here for yourself ... (2 Corinthians 3:7-10)
Yes, there was a tutor, a mentor who pointed us to a new way. But the tutor, the law, did not lift a finger to help us see anything than our own sinful condition ... yes, "Thank you, tutor, your work is done."
And so is that Mans work as well, who we saw at our "Adamic" destruction, who, graciously, gave us what the law could not. If we entered His Life in this way of grace thru faith, why not continue this way? Why add Moses when the Christ did it perfectly and sealed the deal by His Spirit - (who lives within, just in case we haven't heard).
We will see and understand nothing apart from His revelation, and that by faith (trust) and grace (the unalterable-ness of that one loving Provision).
What I think we are doing here is beating ourselves up with some 'standard' that will never bring us Life. A Life which we now in Christ live out of - by the gift of redemption from that One, and out to that new man, you and I.
Is it so impossible to trust that one will make choices out of his/her focus on that One Provider? Will we ever NOT be judged by a former perfect written standard?
A little leaven leavens the whole message.
Nearly everything I hear in Church-ianity today are efforts to put redeemed men under the curse of the law again, as if they had returned back to the old covenant in the first place. It is no wonder so many walk with a blanket of self-condemnation, the focus is the letter and not the Perfect who brings permanent Life and with it - the letting out of that Life by free choices in all things.
This says it best ...
"It’s actually very easy to identify the difference between the old and new covenant teachings. Just ask yourself if the teaching is putting the emphasis on what you have to do or what Jesus has done. Does it make you introspective, always looking to yourself and how you fared or failed? Or does it turn your eyes away from yourself to look upon Jesus?"
Eyes trained on the law or eyes fixed on the Savior?
We simply refuse to trust that we can live out of our new hearts; no, we must add the rules to call us out and show up how well we're doing the Christian thing, tithing, etc.
What are the 10 commandments called under the new covenant? Ans: A ministry of condemnation, see here for yourself ... (2 Corinthians 3:7-10)
Yes, there was a tutor, a mentor who pointed us to a new way. But the tutor, the law, did not lift a finger to help us see anything than our own sinful condition ... yes, "Thank you, tutor, your work is done."
And so is that Mans work as well, who we saw at our "Adamic" destruction, who, graciously, gave us what the law could not. If we entered His Life in this way of grace thru faith, why not continue this way? Why add Moses when the Christ did it perfectly and sealed the deal by His Spirit - (who lives within, just in case we haven't heard).
We will see and understand nothing apart from His revelation, and that by faith (trust) and grace (the unalterable-ness of that one loving Provision).
What I think we are doing here is beating ourselves up with some 'standard' that will never bring us Life. A Life which we now in Christ live out of - by the gift of redemption from that One, and out to that new man, you and I.
Is it so impossible to trust that one will make choices out of his/her focus on that One Provider? Will we ever NOT be judged by a former perfect written standard?
A little leaven leavens the whole message.
Nearly everything I hear in Church-ianity today are efforts to put redeemed men under the curse of the law again, as if they had returned back to the old covenant in the first place. It is no wonder so many walk with a blanket of self-condemnation, the focus is the letter and not the Perfect who brings permanent Life and with it - the letting out of that Life by free choices in all things.
This says it best ...
"It’s actually very easy to identify the difference between the old and new covenant teachings. Just ask yourself if the teaching is putting the emphasis on what you have to do or what Jesus has done. Does it make you introspective, always looking to yourself and how you fared or failed? Or does it turn your eyes away from yourself to look upon Jesus?"
2 Cor. 3
10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.
Which refers to 2 Cor. 2; which refers to 1 Cor. 5.
edit >>>
1 Cor. 5
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; ...11CensoredBut actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, ...
2 Cor. 2
3 This is the very thing I wrote you, ...
Being taken out of context is not new for Paul. <<<
10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.
Which refers to 2 Cor. 2; which refers to 1 Cor. 5.
edit >>>
1 Cor. 5
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; ...11CensoredBut actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, ...
2 Cor. 2
3 This is the very thing I wrote you, ...
Being taken out of context is not new for Paul. <<<
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Miguel Cervantes
Jedi Master
Excellent quote but also there are those that think His Salvation is all about them.
Fear of the Lord should still exist, if for no other reason than under this scripture;
Would practicing the wrong law, ignoring the application of the New Covenant Commission and Greatest of all Commandments justify lawlessness? Is anyone really willing to take that risk to find out?
But the 2Cor3 in it's entirity tells quite a different story.
2 Corinthians 3New International Version (NIV)
3 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
I don't understand what you mean by "a different story".
Paul seems consist in all three chapters — the law is not to be ignored, but always applied from the "new heart" given by God through the Spirit.
gordon 2
Senior Member
This^^^.
Miguel Cervantes
Jedi Master
Before on GON there was only the "Spiritual" discussion forum and I witnessed the very worst of Christianity at play on here. I lobbied mightily for the Admin to provide forums and sub-forums for believers of other faiths and more importantly believers of no religions or faiths.
It is easy for the human trait of self righteousness to overcome us and use the power of the keyboard commando to slay others in His name on an internet forum, especially when you feel that you are justified by the fact that there is only a forum recognizing only one truth.
But when all parties are included in their own beliefs the shortcomings of all are exposed to debate, interpretation and discussion.
Quoting part of a scripture, but not all of it, putting it into context exposes a "different story" to how it may be interpreted by all.
At the end of the day one man's truth may not actually be "The Truth" when only partially exposed.
And I extend my heartfelt thanks for you efforts, although I continue to be gravely disappointed in the vastly underused Christianity and Judaism subforum.
Which is exactly the reason for bringing in the back-story (context).
Are we are saying the same thing; that 2 Cor. 3 can not be understood when viewed alone?
Miguel Cervantes
Jedi Master
Perhaps, but contrary to who Paul was addressing back in the day, it seems more Christians need to hear his words in context today than others do.
The "stinging indictment" on todays Church is not due to other religions or non-religions progress in society, but due to Christianities failure to act as instructed, even to this day.
The people of "the church", the congregation, not so much the corporate body, have put all of their moral fears before the Greatest Commandment of all, out of a show of human shortcoming and lack of faith contrary to what they profess.
If our job were to build a bridge, but we were constantly being distracted by ants and mosquito's, snakes and other critters and concentrating our efforts on fighting them as a perceived threat, instead of building that bridge, what have we accomplished in the eyes of all that are observing us as Christians? The bridge shall forever remain unfinished, and the struggle shall forever continue.
I think that we are both saying "neither to the right nor to the left", while your experience has shown your more excesses to the right, and my experience has shown me more excesses to the left. Both can be avoided when, and only when, all of God's revelation, both written and imbued, is trusted with complete faith in His perfect providence.
gordon 2
Senior Member
The problem in the algorithm here is agreement on what " To act as instructed" means.
Some Christians who seem to need to follow a recipe might view the instruction for God's people as when the priests were livitical.-- Yet, this priesthood was a priesthood for a time meant for a people that was not yet spiritually freed and to eternal life.
Other Christians might view the instruction for God's people as before an eternal priesthood-- melchizedek. The instruction for these God's people freed from the curse of sin is very different so these say. The instruction is more free hand for lack of a better term: that is, it is directed from within the believer ( from the heart of the believer) and not from recipe.
So if our job is to build bridges... I can bring a shovel to empty the bog. How many here are really willing to take the time to dig until we hit solid footing? Hum? ( Oh and biting insects are usually accompanied with the work of building bridges... unless your over the sea... Tampa Bay for example.)
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gordon 2
Senior Member
I wonder if I can trust this as a permanent bridge? How can I trust the written and the imbued? What do you mean by "complete faith in His perfect providence"? Is this some kind of iron work in the concrete?
You can trust that which is from God. Anything "for a time meant for a people that was not yet spiritually freed and to eternal life" would not be trustworthy (Mal 3:6ff).
"iron work in the concrete"? In that it has no tensile strength without it, is not openly visible, and facilitates spans transverse to the force of gravity ... could be.
gordon 2
Senior Member
Thanks for the Malachi reference 3:6ff. It sort of makes one think.
Jesus said : Matt 9:13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Jesus said: Matt 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
Rev 20:15 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it*, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
*the beast
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Miguel Cervantes
Jedi Master
But what of the modern day churches desire/MOS to fill more seats, build bigger buildings to fill yet more seats.
What is their true motive? Would not putting their focus on God and doing what is actually commanded automatically yield these results without making them the focus of their mission?
What is their true motive? Would not putting their focus on God and doing what is actually commanded automatically yield these results without making them the focus of their mission?
SemperFiDawg
Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
Saw this and it struck me as analogous to how apparently most here feel about tithing.
http://babylonbee.com/news/jesus-never-said-anything-felony-home-invasion/
http://babylonbee.com/news/jesus-never-said-anything-felony-home-invasion/
