Abomination of desolation

Artfuldodger said:

It was a weird way of stating my druthers. Not that my druthers matter much in God's plan. I'll just say; it would be easier to interpret scripture if "it is finished."

I'm not saying it is, but from point "A" to "B" or from the grave to Heaven, is much easier to see than, to the grave physically, to Abraham's Bosom spiritually, back to the earth's sky spiritually, up to the sky physically, body and spirit re-united, then off and up to Heaven we will go.

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I often thank God that my mind is unencumbered by such thoughts, although I recognize the concern of others; come to think of it, I guess I don't even have druthers in that area.

hobbs27 said:

Perceveiring to the end.
Christians were under great tribulation by the old covenant Jew's. It got really bad toward the end. It would have been easier on them to turn back to mosaic Judaism.... But those that held to the faith, saw the abomination of desolation sign of the Roman soldiers standing in Jerusalem, and they fled. They were saved.

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These people who fled to the mountains and received salvation from the destruction, did they also receive eternal salvation from everlasting death?
What happened to them after the destruction of Jerusalem? Did all of the non-believers, tares if you will die in the destruction?
I'm trying to figure out if anybody was left but the people who were the sheep. What happened to the sheep at that time? Were they raptured or did they live out their physical lives in the mountains and/or dispersion?

So the tares, did they live out their physical lives until they died a physical, everlasting death or were they all destroyed in the destruction?

I guess the sheep, as in today, went on reproducing tares.

Please don't give me a video. A short as possible answer will suffice. Just wondering what happened to everybody after Jerusalem fell. The believers, the non-believers, and the Romans soldiers and how life went on after the destruction.
Considering we are still here and we still have believers and non-believers who came from that group and dispersed the gospel to the world. Unless the gospel had already been preached to the world. Still though it was a local event that didn't kill non-believers in the South Pacific.

According to Josephus 1.1 million Jews died, around 95,000 were taken into slavery and about the same number was left behind. Those left behind were the elderly, sick, and those just unable to work as slaves. There was a small faction that escaped but were found and killed or committed mass suicide later on.

Those taken into slavery were scattered all around in the Roman Empire. Many converting to other faiths and most if not all eventually marrying into other races, which makes it impossible for anyone to say they are 100% Hebrew today, and was even difficult to do when Christ was born..and they had the genealogical records in those days at the temple. The tares being burned was representative of being cast out of their kingdom...cast out of covenant.

As for the Christians, they scattered about also, building churches throughout Asia , Europe, and North Africa.

“When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” (Luke 21:20.)

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

“Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains"

Daniel 11:31
"His army will take over the Temple fortress, pollute the sanctuary, put a stop to the daily sacrifices, and set up the sacrilegious object that causes desecration.

I would say Daniel was talking about the destruction that is eminent because Matthew says it is.

Matthew 24:15
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand.

Now how do we as Christians view this Temple that was destroyed? They said it was holy. The "abomination of desolation" would pollute the sanctuary.

So was this a Christian holy place or a Jewish holy place? If Jewish then maybe that's why God destroyed it. Yet it seems to be of some importance to God if it was holy and the "abomination of desolation" polluted the sanctuary. How could a non-Christian sanctuary get polluted?

It had to have some importance with God, especially if it will be rebuilt. Now if all is finished then perhaps it was just a non-Christian Jewish temple that needed to be destroyed.
Now that it is gone we can see the Temple that was rebuilt in three days and become a part of that Temple.

hobbs27 said:

According to Josephus 1.1 million Jews died, around 95,000 were taken into slavery and about the same number was left behind. Those left behind were the elderly, sick, and those just unable to work as slaves. There was a small faction that escaped but were found and killed or committed mass suicide later on.

Those taken into slavery were scattered all around in the Roman Empire. Many converting to other faiths and most if not all eventually marrying into other races, which makes it impossible for anyone to say they are 100% Hebrew today, and was even difficult to do when Christ was born..and they had the genealogical records in those days at the temple. The tares being burned was representative of being cast out of their kingdom...cast out of covenant.

As for the Christians, they scattered about also, building churches throughout Asia , Europe, and North Africa.

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Then both non-believers and believers escaped the destruction. These gospel accounts of the salvation from destruction saved both Christians, Jews, and Pagans(Roman soldiers)
I was thinking only the Christians gained salvation and the rest were killed but just on a local basis.

Now if salvation was given to non-believers, did some believers not receive salvation from the destruction?
Were there any Christians among the million Jews that died? Perhaps they didn't heed the warning to flee to the mountains. Maybe some of them went back for their cloak.

Would you say the destruction of Jerusalem was more or less just the end of a physical Jerusalem and temple to allow the new spiritual Jerusalem and temple to appear?
More or less to finish up prophesy. It had nothing to do with eternal salvation. The end of everything Jewish to include the Holy Temple.

Artfuldodger said:

Then both non-believers and believers escaped the destruction. These gospel accounts of the salvation from destruction saved both Christians, Jews, and Pagans(Roman soldiers)
I was thinking only the Christians gained salvation and the rest were killed but just on a local basis.

Now if salvation was given to non-believers, did some believers not receive salvation from the destruction?
Were there any Christians among the million Jews that died? Perhaps they didn't heed the warning to flee to the mountains. Maybe some of them went back for their cloak.

Would you say the destruction of Jerusalem was more or less just the end of a physical Jerusalem and temple to allow the new spiritual Jerusalem and temple to appear?
More or less to finish up prophesy. It had nothing to do with eternal salvation. The end of everything Jewish to include the Holy Temple.

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Josephus said all Christians left the city.

Hebrews 8:13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

The Old covenant had been made obsolete, yet the physical part of it was still in existence. It had to be destroyed is Jesus foretold in Matthew 24.

hobbs27 said:

Of course it is past. All Israel was saved. The wheat ( All Israel) was harvested and the tares (apostate Israel) were cast out of covenant.

The Sheep that knew Jesus voice were separated from the goats.

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Then you see Romans 11:25-26 as part of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD? This is when the wheat was separated from the tares?

I'm still trying to see or combine the two salvation's. If Romans 11:25-26 happened in 70AD then did it not give eternal salvation to Israel(sheep)?

Yet not all of the the tares died in the destruction and not every Christian gained eternal salvation in the destruction.

How do we go about separating salvation verses as to which ones pertain to salvation from the destruction vs the ones pertaining to salvation from eternal death?

hobbs27 said:

Josephus said all Christians left the city.

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So much for free will. Every Christian heeded the warnings. No Christian went back for his cloak. This salvation was their physical salvation from the destruction of the city. It didn't affect their eternal salvation one way or the other.

Even if they were destroyed in the city, it would not have affected their eternal salvation. They didn't all go to Heaven after the destruction. They lived on producing offspring. Some of whom never believed.
Eventually though they died a physical death and received their eternal salvation that the Cross provided. Many could have died in future wars. They didn't gain mortality in the destruction at Jerusalem. They just gained a little more time on the earth. Some gained days and others gained years.

Artfuldodger said:

Then you see Romans 11:25-26 as part of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD? This is when the wheat was separated from the tares?

I'm still trying to see or combine the two salvation's. If Romans 11:25-26 happened in 70AD then did it not give eternal salvation to Israel(sheep)?

Yet not all of the the tares died in the destruction and not every Christian gained eternal salvation in the destruction.

How do we go about separating salvation verses as to which ones pertain to salvation from the destruction vs the ones pertaining to salvation from eternal death?

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They received eternal life in their faith. Christians were already saved.....but this was the transition period, much like the 40years in the wilderness there was 40 years from Pentecost to 70ad give or take a year.

Those that died in this transition were referred to as those that sleep in Christ. They received eternal life, but before the marriage of the bride was consummated.

hobbs27 said:

They received eternal life in their faith. Christians were already saved.....but this was the transition period, much like the 40years in the wilderness there was 40 years from Pentecost to 70ad give or take a year.

Those that died in this transition were referred to as those that sleep in Christ. They received eternal life, but before the marriage of the bride was consummated.

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Are you saying the destruction in 70AD was needed for the Christians alive during that period to gain eternal salvation?

I think I've got enough to dwell on for the time being. Somehow it appears the gospel accounts of the destruction brought salvation from the destruction and somehow it's related to eternal salvation.
I'll have to let some of this info sink in.

Artfuldodger said:

Are you saying the destruction in 70AD was needed for the Christians alive during that period to gain eternal salvation?

I think I've got enough to dwell on for the time being. Somehow it appears the gospel accounts of the destruction brought salvation from the destruction and somehow it's related to eternal salvation.
I'll have to let some of this info sink in.

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Sure. There was " the dead ones" and there was the " sleep in Christ aka dead in Christ" ones and there was those that were alive and remained to His coming... All were joined together as one spiritual body.

hobbs27 said:

Sure. There was " the dead ones" and there was the " sleep in Christ aka dead in Christ" ones and there was those that were alive and remained to His coming... All were joined together as one spiritual body.

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Yet this coming of Christ saved some Jews who were non-believers. It also allowed sheep to produce non-believing reprobates.
We still have Judaism and we still have reprobates that were saved from the destruction.

It appears the only one's who benefited from it were the believing soul sleepers as for as to who gained eternal salvation. Which coincided with the salvation from the destruction of Jerusalem. Which saved all Christians and some reprobate Jews from the local destruction only. It didn't save them from any future destruction. It didn't save the sheep in the Vietnam War destruction.

The rest of the world went about living as they were before the destruction. When did the Gospel reach the whole world? Unless all the soul sleeping saints of the whole wide world also gained eternal life coinciding with the destruction of Jerusalem.

What am I missing? What is the connecting link to the local salvation mentioned in the gospels and the salvation from eternal death?

If the Gospel has already reached the whole world then that would prove God's audience were the only one's who were called.

Unless the "world" was the area around the Middle East.

Artfuldodger said:

Yet this coming of Christ saved some Jews who were non-believers. It also allowed sheep to produce non-believing reprobates.
We still have Judaism and we still have reprobates that were saved from the destruction.

It appears the only one's who benefited from it were the believing soul sleepers as for as to who gained eternal salvation. Which coincided with the salvation from the destruction of Jerusalem. Which saved all Christians and some reprobate Jews from the local destruction only. It didn't save them from any future destruction. It didn't save the sheep in the Vietnam War destruction.

The rest of the world went about living as they were before the destruction. When did the Gospel reach the whole world? Unless all the soul sleeping saints of the whole wide world also gained eternal life coinciding with the destruction of Jerusalem.

What am I missing? What is the connecting link to the local salvation mentioned in the gospels and the salvation from eternal death?

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Matthew 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.

God's favor is what you're missing I think. In covenant with God and Jesus covering sin that we may have a direct relationship with God as Adam did before sin entered.

Artfuldodger said:

If the Gospel has already reached the whole world then that would prove God's audience were the only one's who were called.

Unless the "world" was the area around the Middle East.

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Roman's 10:18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

hobbs27 said:

Roman's 10:18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

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19I ask instead: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says: “I will make you jealous by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation without understanding.” 20And Isaiah boldly says: “I was found by those who did not seek Me; I revealed Myself to those who did not ask for Me.”

Would you say God's audience has heard the gospel then? Every single one of God's audience. Every single person that God wanted to hear his message.
How did God's audience in the South Pacific hear the gospel before 70AD?

Didn't you say on another thread that perhaps God has chose for some people not to hear?
If the gospel has reached the world, why continue to spread the gospel? Maybe they forgot the gospel from when they were delivered it prior to 70AD.
Still though how do we explain how it was delivered if from man and not God to his audience before 70AD? Boats?

But we know that there are people that hear and don't understand.

"I will make you angry by a nation without understanding."

hobbs27 said:

Sure. There was " the dead ones" and there was the " sleep in Christ aka dead in Christ" ones and there was those that were alive and remained to His coming... All were joined together as one spiritual body.

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But the ones alive at his coming didn't join the ones who were asleep in the ground.
Those asleep in the ground went to heaven and those that were alive at His coming continued life on the earth.

Artfuldodger said:

But the ones alive at his coming didn't join the ones who were asleep in the ground.
Those asleep in the ground went to heaven and those that were alive at His coming continued life on the earth.

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They joined in one body. The church body. They all, dead and judged, dead in Christ and alive in Christ were joined together as the New Testament church.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

I think it unfair to force Matt. 24:14 to have a different definition of the two following texts.. What say you?

Col. 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Romans 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

hobbs27 said:

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

I think it unfair to force Matt. 24:14 to have a different definition of the two following texts.. What say you?

Col. 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Romans 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

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That's what it says, it must be true then. The only way I can see that happening is the Holy Spirit spreading the word to God's audience. The Christians didn't have the means before 70AD to spread the Word to every person in the whole wide world.
If they did, and I'm not saying they didn't, many across the world have forgotten the message since then. Take the Native Americans if you will. They had forgot the Gospel by the time the Europeans arrived.

Maybe every creature is everyone in the Creation(Israel) and the world was the same world that was flooded.

Since the flood was local and the destruction was local, it doesn't change much as to exactly who the gospel message had reached. It wouldn't have changed who receive salvation or who didn't. It's not like they had to be saved before the destruction of Jerusalem.