Would you consider Jesus to be a strong Christian? He drank routinely and in public. I also doubt if he always stayed completely sober while doing so.
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Drinking Alcohol in Moderation a Sin?
- Thread starter LittleDrummerBoy
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SemperFiDawg
Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
I agree that Christ did drink alcoholic beverages. I've heard over the years a lot of postulation on that.......everything from it was grape juice to the wine back then wasn't as strong as it is today. I don't know, but some people got drunk. That's not debatable.
Honestly, when I look at the context of the setting, I think it's much as it is today, dramatization from the antagonistic Pharisees to make a point. And the point they were trying to make was "He's drinking with sinners, thus he's a drunk and a fraud. In short, character assassination. Drinking does not equal drunk. One is not a sin, one is.
Personally I don't think he got drunk. It would have totally discredited his ministry, which obviously did not happen. People in those days were no more tolerant of frauds in the ministry, that the public is today. For some reason there's nothing that makes most of humanity happier than seeing someone else fail, especially a public figure which he certainly was, and that just never happened.
We have to remember that most other cultures don't look at the world the same way as most southern Baptists who were raised to view drinking as sinful and unusual. In most cultures, including most Christian denominations other than Baptists, there is no stigma against drinking, and somebody getting buzzed at a party is not considered something degrading or discrediting, it would just be considered normal human behavior. It is just another thing that made Jesus relatable as a human to most folks, IMO. I'm not talking about habitually laying drunk like Otis Campbell, just normal drinking, with the end result of sometimes getting a buzz on.
Even here, the ideas that we now hold as normal Baptist thinking about consumption of alcohol are relatively recent, mostly dating back to around prohibition. Even the military used to issue soldiers a daily ration of liquor.
creekrunner
Senior Member
Psalm 104
14 He makes grass grow for the cattle,
and plants for people to cultivate—
bringing forth food from the earth:
15 wine that gladdens human hearts,
oil to make their faces shine,
and bread that sustains their hearts.
14 He makes grass grow for the cattle,
and plants for people to cultivate—
bringing forth food from the earth:
15 wine that gladdens human hearts,
oil to make their faces shine,
and bread that sustains their hearts.
SemperFiDawg
Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
Yeah if his entry into Jerusalem was marked by riding in on a cow sitting backwards, well...
I think you confuse a buzz with being hammered. Two different things entirely.
SemperFiDawg
Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
j_seph
Senior Member
I still have to hang on to it is a personal relationship between you and Jesus and we must work out our own salvation. There is also the scripture ' Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."
Has there been times since I have gotten my life closer to God that I have said or thought man I'd like to have an ice cold beer? There has been those times, one 4th of July I actually did have one about 3 years ago. After getting conviction over that one beer I have not had one since. Have I been out of Gods will and gotten drunk since I was saved, yes I have. That gets brought back to my remembrance from time to time. You may not get convicted for having one, or two beers to drink. To me that is between you and the Master, not you and I. My wife and I can go to a restaurant and have an option to set at the bar or wait 20 min for a table. We will wait for a table. Our thoughts on that is what opinion does that give someone that knows our walk when they see us at the bar even if we are not having a drink. Say one of the youth come in from your church, maybe they came by and seen your vehicle and they have something going on that they had to stop by and talk with you about. Is there a chance that they come in and see you at the bar, that they may turn around and leave? If you walked into a restaurant and seen your pastor sitting at the bar would it not make you think just for a second? Our pastor quit going to a pool hall years ago. Even though he was not doing anything wrong, he got conviction of what would someone be lead to if they came by and seen him hanging out there.
James 4:17
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Has there been times since I have gotten my life closer to God that I have said or thought man I'd like to have an ice cold beer? There has been those times, one 4th of July I actually did have one about 3 years ago. After getting conviction over that one beer I have not had one since. Have I been out of Gods will and gotten drunk since I was saved, yes I have. That gets brought back to my remembrance from time to time. You may not get convicted for having one, or two beers to drink. To me that is between you and the Master, not you and I. My wife and I can go to a restaurant and have an option to set at the bar or wait 20 min for a table. We will wait for a table. Our thoughts on that is what opinion does that give someone that knows our walk when they see us at the bar even if we are not having a drink. Say one of the youth come in from your church, maybe they came by and seen your vehicle and they have something going on that they had to stop by and talk with you about. Is there a chance that they come in and see you at the bar, that they may turn around and leave? If you walked into a restaurant and seen your pastor sitting at the bar would it not make you think just for a second? Our pastor quit going to a pool hall years ago. Even though he was not doing anything wrong, he got conviction of what would someone be lead to if they came by and seen him hanging out there.
James 4:17
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
buckpasser
Senior Member
No, I consider him the Christ. I do not believe he ever got drunk. I was simply stating my opinion and some questions to ponder. My life experience is probably much more conservative than some. My mother’s parents were both raised by drunks that would let their kids go hungry to get drunk. They had a bad taste for it (no pun intended). I also went to school with a kid that was raised drinking brown liquor at the dinner table with his folks from an early age. He’s in rehab after 3 DUIs and the loss of his career and family. I tend to be on the side of “maybe it’s really not a great idea”, however, I don’t see drinking as a sin. Only getting drunk.
A lot of good responses already, and we can post many more responses... but the simple fact is: It is not a sin to drink alcohol in moderation.
Common sense, biblical knowledge of principals laid out within and examples answers this question easily.
The Bible describes wine as a gift from God that can make life more enjoyable. Note for reference; Ps 104:14-15 Ecclesiastes 3;13, 9;7
The Bible also acknowledges the medicinal value of wine as Paul told Timothy to take some for his stomach. 1Tim 5;23
Jesus drank wine during his time on earth Matthew 26;29, Luke 7:34
In one of his well-known miracles, Jesus turned water into wine as a generous gift at a marriage feast John 2;1-10.
So the Bible mentions the positive aspects of wine, and it condemns over drinking and drunkenness.
Thus, a Christian who chooses to drink alcohol would do so only in moderation.
1Tim 3;8, Titus 2;2-3
The Bible gives several reasons to avoid over-drinking
Proverbs 23;29-35. It impairs thinking ability and judgment.
Romans 12;1 An intoxicated person cannot fulfill the Bible’s command to “present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason.”
Hosea 4:11, Eph 5;18 Over drinking removes inhibitions and “the motivation to do what is right.”
Pro 23;21, 31, 32 It can lead to poverty and serious health problems.
Prov 23:20, Gal 5:19-21 Heavy drinking and drunkenness displease God.
So no the Bible does not condemn drinking, but does provide cautions.
Also as we do have a right to drink....if it stumbles our brother we would not want to drink with them or in their presence..as Paul said, so that he does not loose his brother. That would show love and humility on our part.
Common sense, biblical knowledge of principals laid out within and examples answers this question easily.
The Bible describes wine as a gift from God that can make life more enjoyable. Note for reference; Ps 104:14-15 Ecclesiastes 3;13, 9;7
The Bible also acknowledges the medicinal value of wine as Paul told Timothy to take some for his stomach. 1Tim 5;23
Jesus drank wine during his time on earth Matthew 26;29, Luke 7:34
In one of his well-known miracles, Jesus turned water into wine as a generous gift at a marriage feast John 2;1-10.
So the Bible mentions the positive aspects of wine, and it condemns over drinking and drunkenness.
Thus, a Christian who chooses to drink alcohol would do so only in moderation.
1Tim 3;8, Titus 2;2-3
The Bible gives several reasons to avoid over-drinking
Proverbs 23;29-35. It impairs thinking ability and judgment.
Romans 12;1 An intoxicated person cannot fulfill the Bible’s command to “present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason.”
Hosea 4:11, Eph 5;18 Over drinking removes inhibitions and “the motivation to do what is right.”
Pro 23;21, 31, 32 It can lead to poverty and serious health problems.
Prov 23:20, Gal 5:19-21 Heavy drinking and drunkenness displease God.
So no the Bible does not condemn drinking, but does provide cautions.
Also as we do have a right to drink....if it stumbles our brother we would not want to drink with them or in their presence..as Paul said, so that he does not loose his brother. That would show love and humility on our part.
A lot of people seem to base their opinion of everyone who drinks on disfunctional alcoholics. In reality, there are few people who don't drink, but a very small percentage of people who drink are like the people like you describe. Everybody who drinks isn't a drunk. And lots of folks drink every day and never get drunk.
PappyHoel
Senior Member
1 Corinthians 10:31 says, “Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.”
IMO drinking in excess and acting like a fool is not doing it in the glory of God. I shouldn't cast stones in this regard, but I also couldn't tell you the last time i had a beer.
Additional Bible references include: Psalm 78:17-19, Philippians 3:19-20, Proverbs 23:1-3, Proverbs 23:19-21 and 1 Corinthians 3:16-17.
Highlighted in red the good ones.
IMO drinking in excess and acting like a fool is not doing it in the glory of God. I shouldn't cast stones in this regard, but I also couldn't tell you the last time i had a beer.
Additional Bible references include: Psalm 78:17-19, Philippians 3:19-20, Proverbs 23:1-3, Proverbs 23:19-21 and 1 Corinthians 3:16-17.
Highlighted in red the good ones.
buckpasser
Senior Member
I can believe that. I guess the problem is that I do know some good ol daily drinkers who are not hammered all the time and some dysfunctional alcoholics and unless they’re hiding it well, none of the strong Christians that I know are in either of those categories. I’m not judging the faith of the folks I know in categories 1 or 2, just saying what I’ve noticed.
Good comments and great scriptural references by PappyHoel and others.
Many unscriptural restrictions have been placed, preached to the parishioners and others perhaps to inflict fear.
Yet many of these rules and restrictions are not scriptural...
Ironically the ones that are, are relaxed or permitted or condoned
Drinking alcohol as said before is a loving provision our father gave us and as with all gifts moderation is the key
Many unscriptural restrictions have been placed, preached to the parishioners and others perhaps to inflict fear.
Yet many of these rules and restrictions are not scriptural...
Ironically the ones that are, are relaxed or permitted or condoned
Drinking alcohol as said before is a loving provision our father gave us and as with all gifts moderation is the key
Israel
BANNED
Teaching the traditions of men as the commandments of God...
j_seph
Senior Member
Maybe a post for another day but anyways. What is your definition of drunk? How is drunk defined? Why can one person drink 1 or 2 beers and be buzzed yet another can drink 6 and not get buzzed? Is being buzzed but not drunk just as bad?
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
My answer in the perspective back when Jesus was walking the earth would be perhaps a light sensation from say 3-4 glasses to a 3 or 4 wineskins which might cause slurred speech, trouble walking, and poor decisions.
Considering they drunk a lot of wine, they all probably had a high tolerance for alcohol. They also attended a lot of festivals, weddings, etc. where one would be in a celebration of life type of mode.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
By that same respect, I know plenty of kids who were raised in decent Christian homes where the parents didn't drink. These kids are alcoholics and have dui's. Alcoholism knows no boundaries.
I also know some of these good families whose kids are addicted to opiates and meth. Drug addiction also knows no boundaries.
j_seph
Senior Member
To build tolerance do you not have to drink a lot? At first 1 or 2 give you a buzz, then it is 2 or 3, then it is 3 or 4, then 4 or 5 and so on. So if 2 is what gave you a buzz initially, now it takes 6 to get that same buzz is that not going over the drinking in moderation. You have given yourself a tolerance for the alcohol, now you have modified/changed the temple from what once was at 2 was enough, now it takes 6 to be enough. Maybe you can see what I am getting at. What is moderation? The more often you drink the more the tolerance for it, the more you drink. What used to be the moderate has now grown to more. To me that is the growing into an alcoholic.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
I can see that. Back then, since they drunk so much wine, I'm sure they could drink a lot without getting drunk. It would probably take a lot of wine to make one back then, drunk.
Yet they did have drunkards. They had people who consumed too much, whatever that standard was.
