False Theories About Grace

[Spotlite]

John 6:63
The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Romans 8:27-28
And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose.

I guess what I'm asking is exactly how much of our works are actually the fruits of the Holy Spirit? If our flesh can do nothing and the Spirit gives eternal life? If the Spirit intercedes?

If you had to put a percentage on what's from our dead flesh to that of a life giving Spirit? If the Holy Spirit intercedes for those called for God's purpose?
50-50? Living Spirit 75% and dead flesh 25%? Man 75% and Spirit 25%?

My point is repentance, baptism, etc., are what most consider “works” as a man “saving himself”. That’s a false claim. You’re not “earning” salvation by doing that, you’re acting on God’s Word - “For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:”

That’s what scripture means when it says faith without works is dead - you don’t really believe God’s Word if you’re not a doer of His Word.

The devil also believes……but he’s not a doer of the Word.

 

[furtaker]

Not that I agree but the way some have explained it is this.
God elects by grace alone and not works. If God elected by works, then it would not be grace.
I think both camps agree to that part. Where the one camp takes it is, even though God elected themselves by grace and gave them the free gift of salvation, it is up to their works to maintain that free gift that God gave them by unmerited grace.

Maybe like, God gave them salvation by grace and not works but then the very next day, they had to start on a path of works to make it stick.

Let's say God just randomly handed out pilot's license for free by His choosing and sent them to Jesus for their free copy. Then as they flew, they had to maintain that license by their flying skills or works.

So you get it by grace and keep it by works. Which means you are ultimately saved in the end by your works, so salvation is by works.

If that's their argument it makes no logical sense.

 

[furtaker]

surely. and more grievous.
It makes no Christ.

Yeah, if that's the case, nobody needs Jesus.

 

[Spotlite]

So you get it by grace and keep it by works. Which means you are ultimately saved in the end by your works, so salvation is by works.

If that's their argument it makes no logical sense.

That’s the whole misunderstood part of this grace / work’s argument. Salvation comes from God alone, not grace itself. It’s the grace of God (favor) to give you something you don’t deserve.

Salvation is never about works.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Find out how many times Abraham called on the Lord, I guarantee it wasn’t a one time time thing. He

Your faith doesn’t mean nothing if you’re not a doer of the heard Word of God. If you pray, fast, study, etc., you’re doing works. Not man, but scripture says if you’re not a doer of the Word your faith is dead. It don’t have make logical sense.

Could it affect your salvation? I guess the question comes down to if your faith is dead or not to begin with.

 

[formula1]

Romans 4
1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

 

[Artfuldodger]

My point is repentance, baptism, etc., are what most consider “works” as a man “saving himself”. That’s a false claim. You’re not “earning” salvation by doing that, you’re acting on God’s Word - “For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:”

That’s what scripture means when it says faith without works is dead - you don’t really believe God’s Word if you’re not a doer of His Word.

The devil also believes……but he’s not a doer of the Word.

And my point was the Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing.
If this is true, then any works a man does, has to be from that life giving Spirit who are called according to God's purpose.

One may well do that stuff but he can't do it on his on accord just to prove he is a child of God and thus has salvation.

 

[Artfuldodger]

So you get it by grace and keep it by works. Which means you are ultimately saved in the end by your works, so salvation is by works.

If that's their argument it makes no logical sense.

Yes under that plan, it's really not grace at all.

 

[formula1]

much going up in smoke

Smoldering ashes! For our Savior said, “It is finished.”

 

[Artfuldodger]

Romans 4
1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Like I've said before, if it was from me, I'd surely boast about it. I'd be on here everyday explaining that my flesh is justified by my works. I couldn't boast this to God so I might as well boast it to men.

 

[Spotlite]

And my point was the Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing.
If this is true, then any works a man does, has to be from that life giving Spirit who are called according to God's purpose.

One may well do that stuff but he can't do it on his on accord just to prove he is a child of God and thus has salvation.

It was never about obtaining salvation. That’s what has always been misunderstood.

 

[Artfuldodger]

It was never about obtaining salvation. That’s what has always been misunderstood.

Perhaps these discussions such as "False Theories About Grace" aren't just a rebuttal to you but to some of the other members? I'm pretty sure there are members on this forum that think other than just what you are saying as it pertains to Grace and not works.
Maybe if you give us another short summary of how you think it works. Let's say that I am called by God and He leads me to Jesus. I have the gift of salvation given to me by grace. I accept His plea. Now suppose later I succumb to alcohol or homosexual sex.
Are you saying that if I can't fix this or these, I'm going to loose the salvation that I once had?
Or are you saying that I'm going to loose the gift because the Holy Spirit has quit manifesting His works according to God's plan in my flesh?

 

[Spotlite]

Perhaps these discussions such as "False Theories About Grace" aren't just a rebuttal to you but to some of the other members? I'm pretty sure there are members on this forum that think other than just what you are saying as it pertains to Grace and not works

I cant speak for other members but if something strikes me I do not mind speaking up. Grace is passed off as something of it`s own...........Grace itself does not do a thing for you. Grace is just the favor of God. I find nothing biblical where salvation comes from anything other than God.

By the grace of God you are saved. By the grace of the President you can be pardoned. But grace itself is nothing but the favor of the giver.

Maybe if you give us another short summary of how you think it works. Let's say that I am called by God and He leads me to Jesus. I have the gift of salvation given to me by grace. I accept His plea.

Ok, so you are pricked in your heart, lead to salvation. Lord I believe you are the one God, Paul said good, so does the devil.

One will use his talents, one will not - see how that "works" thing works?

Now suppose later I succumb to alcohol or homosexual sex.
Are you saying that if I can't fix this or these, I'm going to loose the salvation that I once had?
Or are you saying that I'm going to loose the gift because the Holy Spirit has quit manifesting His works according to God's plan in my flesh?

Fortunately, I do not make these decisions, calls, judgements. It has been said here that a man has to restore that fellowship with the Father - I agree.

I know the spirit and flesh are contrary one to the other. The works of the spirit do not ever manifest in the flesh and vise versa. You are either in the flesh or in the spirit, but never both at the same time. You are certainly NOT going to be in the spirit committing adultery in the flesh - whoever believes that needs help.

I will go with the statement of "you ain`t holding hands with the devil and God at the same time".

I will refer you back to Abraham - build an alter and call on the name of the Lord. Abraham called on the name of the Lord multiple times.

 

[Spotlite]

Romans 4
1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works

That is why it is important not to rely on one verse. You gotta put it all together to get the whole truth.

Works aint going to save you, works will keep you close to God, though. But if you believe God, if you love God, you will obey the Gospel. You are not doing it to earn salvation, you are doing it because you love God. If you are not, scripture says your faith is dead.

 

[formula1]

Post #101 and #102. I believe Jesus and Paul. In terms of examining yourself, I also believe James.

However, your last paragraph is pretty close. I simply disagree the you are doing works at all! God is working in you and through you according to His purpose and His will at work in you. The very reason grace is free is so we fall in love with God knowing what he has done. You, as a result, can now walk by the Spirit. Remember, it’s Christ in you, the hope of Glory! It is not possible for you to do it yourself.

 

[Artfuldodger]

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works

That is why it is important not to rely on one verse. You gotta put it all together to get the whole truth.

Works aint going to save you, works will keep you close to God, though. But if you believe God, if you love God, you will obey the Gospel. You are not doing it to earn salvation, you are doing it because you love God. If you are not, scripture says your faith is dead.

What does it mean to obey the gospel?

 

[Artfuldodger]

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works

That is why it is important not to rely on one verse. You gotta put it all together to get the whole truth.

Works aint going to save you, works will keep you close to God, though. But if you believe God, if you love God, you will obey the Gospel. You are not doing it to earn salvation, you are doing it because you love God. If you are not, scripture says your faith is dead.

I agree we've got to find that balance between the two. On the one hand what some of us might be alluding to is where or what exactly or how much of it all is from the Holy Spirit?

Reading this;
Students of the New Testament will confront an apparent contradiction between the teachings of Paul and James on the subject of faith and works.

Perhaps it is best represented in the following passages. In his epistle to the Galatians, Paul wrote:

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified....
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. (Galatians 2:16; 3:6–7)​

Paul made very similar statements in his epistle to the Romans (see Romans 3:28; 4:1–3).

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-13-no-3-2012/paul-james-faith-works

 

[Artfuldodger]

James, however, stated:

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?​

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?...​

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness....​

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (James 2:20–21, 23–24)​

​

Without yet defining their terms, we notice that in these passages, both Paul and James used the terms faith, works, and justified. Both Paul and James appealed to Abraham as an example of one who was justified. Both quoted from the same scripture, Genesis 15:6, which says that Abraham “believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness [or justification].” But Paul said that justification comes “by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law” (Galatians 2:16) while James said that “by works a man is justified, and not by faith only” (James 2:24).

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-13-no-3-2012/paul-james-faith-works

Again though, how much of it all comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Spotlite]

What does it mean to obey the gospel?

For me it’s more about what it means to not obey the Gospel.

An example is Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name…….

Somewhere between Acts and Jude some dropped baptism. Why?

You made this statement - “I agree we've got to find that balance between the two.”

That’s correct, and the balance is putting it all together.

Dig back from Matthew to Revelation and figure out what that name is first, who’s name you do every deed in, how baptism fits in, what baptism is and who forbid the water? Where did it ever change? Who said baptism isn’t necessary, and what scripture are they using to over rude what’s written telling you to be baptized?

 

[Artfuldodger]

For me it’s more about what it means to not obey the Gospel.

An example is Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name…….

Somewhere between Acts and Jude some dropped baptism. Why?

You made this statement - “I agree we've got to find that balance between the two.”

That’s correct, and the balance is putting it all together.

Dig back from Matthew to Revelation and figure out what that name is first, who’s name you do every deed in, how baptism fits in, what baptism is and who forbid the water? Where did it ever change? Who said baptism isn’t necessary, and what scripture are they using to over rude what’s written telling you to be baptized?

In Jesus name!

 

[Artfuldodger]

For me it’s more about what it means to not obey the Gospel.

An example is Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name…….

Somewhere between Acts and Jude some dropped baptism. Why?

You made this statement - “I agree we've got to find that balance between the two.”

That’s correct, and the balance is putting it all together.

Dig back from Matthew to Revelation and figure out what that name is first, who’s name you do every deed in, how baptism fits in, what baptism is and who forbid the water? Where did it ever change? Who said baptism isn’t necessary, and what scripture are they using to over rude what’s written telling you to be baptized?

The teachings of grace vs works have changed a lot during my lifetime. When I was younger most Churches were more about works. The Ten Commandments were everywhere. You used to see those white signs along the highways that would say "Repent or burn in He11" or "Turn lest ye burn."
Then slowly over time many churches learned more themselves and started teaching about grace and the new commandments replacing the old ones.
I look at it as a positive thing, as it seems like the emphasis was placed on what Jesus did instead of what we did or can do. Same with what the Spirit can do for us. Plus teaching about love more than hate. When I was young, it seems like there was more hate in the Church than love. Plus back then the Churches had just as much if not more sin in them. I would imagine they must have been ridden with a lot of guilt as well. Trying like hard to meed all that old criteria to get to Heaven. It was a total mess being on a Religious Roller Coaster. One day you think you are in by grace and the next day you think you are out because of works.