Is our faith based on evidence?

[gordon 2]

I think that in part some people are not comfortable being spiritual. Others might just be lazy.

We know that>>" the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

It,s kind of like believers who are not comfortable in a holy rolling, tongue talkin, shouting and bawling, Jimmy the local idiot testimony he's seen "the light" and it changed him, no reservation laying of the hands on the sick in mind and body come all worship meeting. It's like this except the bible is not sensible, let alone the bow your head hypocrites that promote it as answering all questions as it interprets itself.

So how can believers bridge the gap? Before a non believer demands proof for God one needs to take the spiritual life seriously, as serious as one can manage their finances and family goals. Like people work to honor marriage life by not divorcing, believers can only honor the spiritual life by not falling back that such life is a bearer of truth that is mostly vague elsewhere.

It seems to me that people have periods in their lives when it it more favorable for them to "get" the maximum effect of the Gospel in their lives and it is the responsibility of the Church to have events, venues and people who can best minister to individuals at these times. If the Church builds towards this need-- they will come.

All of this requires that people are ministered to in a manner they can understand from the perspective of how people learn TODAY! The last teacher is the Holy Spirit. Let us take cues from his comforts and build up the Church.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

People form their beliefs on evidence or lack of evidence. It’s unreasonable to expect someone to believe in something they have no personal evidence of. I’m gonna ask this question and it’s gonna open up an entirely different can of worms, but I’m gonna ask it anyway. Here it is, “How can we, as believers, help bridge that gap for unbelievers who have formed a belief that there is no God based on no personal evidence for Him?” Keep in mind many of these people have tried faith/religion. They jumped through all the hoops everyone said to yet nada, nothing happened. How do we help show God to someone like that?

Until one is hungry, he will not eat!
Until one is thirsty, he will not drink!

And until God reveals, no one can see!

Not very encouraging telling someone you aren’t gonna see till God decides to reveal it to you. I realize everything happens according to his perfect plan but that’s not the message I would relay to someone who is seeking. It takes a mature believer to grow into and grasp that.

 

[groundhawg]

I asked for you to explain it and expressed a desire to listen and understand, yet you say I don’t listen unless I agree. How can I agree or disagree when in don’t understand it?

Easy to see from reading many of your other messages. No need to try and educate someone who refuses to listen/learn.

 

[formula1]

Not very encouraging telling someone you aren’t gonna see till God decides to reveal it to you. I realize everything happens according to his perfect plan but that’s not the message I would relay to someone who is seeking. It takes a mature believer to grow into and grasp that.

I knew that’s what you might respond and that’s ok. But I’m not trying to discourage anyone because I know if you will seek Him, you WILL find Him.

 

[gemcgrew]

If my faith is based on evidence, it is based on unfaithfulness.

 

[jbogg]

In his book “Faith and Doubt” John Ortberg makes the case that Faith requires a certain amount of doubt. There is plenty of evidence that 2+2=4. No faith is required. I’m a believer, but I have moments of doubt which I’m relieved to know is normal and necessary for there to be Faith.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I think God's plan is to leave a lot of it "unseen." Therefore we have to believe based on trust, hope, and faith. Hope that is seen is not hope.
We have to fix our eyes on the part that is not seen. That takes faith. God requires and even gives us a measure of faith to do this.

 

[Artfuldodger]

In his book “Faith and Doubt” John Ortberg makes the case that Faith requires a certain amount of doubt. There is plenty of evidence that 2+2=4. No faith is required. I’m a believer, but I have moments of doubt which I’m relieved to know is normal and necessary for there to be Faith.

I agree, there has to be that opposite. There would be no goodness if there was no evil. No love if hate didn't exist.

 

[Artfuldodger]

I can see the OP's side as well;
You ask me how I know He lives?
He lives within my heart.

From the song "He Lives." The whole song is about God's evidence. Maybe in one's Christian beginning, his faith is based on the unseen but as he travels to his earthly end, his faith becomes based on what is seen?
Yet we know we don't see all of it because of the dim glass until the end. Part of the mystery is still there and therefore still takes some faith to believe.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

I knew that’s what you might respond and that’s ok. But I’m not trying to discourage anyone because I know if you will seek Him, you WILL find Him.

I understand and I’m not being critical of your response (I was afraid it would come off that way). I just wonder how one could give encouraging advice. I meant no disparagement. It’s my fault of being too plain spoken I suppose. I should have taken the time to word it more kindly given my suspicion that it could have come as crass.

 

[formula1]

SFD, no harm done whatsoever. I love your enthusiasm for reaching the lost. Faith as real as it is, may be seen by most at the end of self! No other way to understand it. Keep planting and the harvest will come!

 

[gemcgrew]

I agree, there has to be that opposite. There would be no goodness if there was no evil. No love if hate didn't exist.

Contrast is useful for teaching, but not necessary. Remember, God is good. Only God is self-existing. Therefore, evil is not necessary. Contrast is useful within creation in the manifestation of Christ to His people.

"our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God"

 

[Israel]

Contrast is useful for teaching, but not necessary. Remember, God is good. Only God is self-existing. Therefore, evil is not necessary. Contrast is useful within creation in the manifestation of Christ to His people.

"our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God"

LOL!

"But" said a man, "I don't like it that way...being the foil"


"Oh" said another man, "then you haven't seen the righteousness of Christ. It can only be seen from a certain assigned seating and from which not one complaint issues as to what is being seen...nor from where"

"In fact quite the opposite issues forth"

[What does a foil mean in literature?


Table of Contents. foil, in literature, a character who is presented as a contrast to a second character so as to point to or show to advantage some aspect of the second character.]

The first man is of the earth, earthy. The second man is of heaven.

And only the second man can give sight to the first man to know he is not First

...man...

yet without shame.


John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

 

[SemperFiDawg]

SFD, no harm done whatsoever. I love your enthusiasm for reaching the lost. Faith as real as it is, may be seen by most at the end of self! No other way to understand it. Keep planting and the harvest will come!

You said, "If you seek him, you will find him." I agree with that, but there are many who will say, "I've sought him, and didn't find him." I get that.

Sometimes I think for those people the best advice would be to say, "Just forget everything you think you know about God. Forget everything you've ever been told. Just forget it. Start with being honest with yourself about your intentions for seeking God. Is it just an intellectual quest, or is it spiritual.? In short, Do you feel that if God is who Christianity says he is, knowing him is vitally important?" I think that's the core question, and I think that if someone, in all sincerity, goes on that simple basis, that God will respond. I absolutely love @jmh5397 's story about how God showed Himself to him.

Eating corndogs later that night, I questioned God out loud just like I would talk to you. Told Him that I wanted to believe, that I've seen my friends change, You took one of my friends, but for some strange reason "you don't want to speak to me. Why won't you speak to me? Are You really real?"<-------There's your faith. I am talking to an entity that I want to believe in but am not completely sure is there. I heard nothing, felt nothing, and got mad. I took the three empty corndog sticks (don't recall why I was holding all three) and threw them down on the plate. One bounced completely off the plate, the other two landed in the center of the plate and formed a perfect cross. Probably could have measured it and it would have been centered on the plate. <---Evidence!!! Yep!!! Stupid corndogs!!! The rest is History. My mom though I was crazy. My friends thought I was crazy. Heck, I thought I was crazy.

God took 3 corndog sticks and gave him exactly what he needed when he needed it. You're not gonna find that in any Bible class. It's not a burning bush or a talking donkey. In fact I would think any "churching" at all would probably have been a hindrance in his case, but he was sincere and he was willing to accept what was provided. That's why I think, for unbelievers who have tried religion and not found God, it's important forget anything "religion" they have learned and just approach God with a sincere heart. I think a lot of non-believers have just as many pre-conceived notions about how this God-thing works(or supposedly works) as believers do. I'd say, "Throw it all out and start over with an open mind. Just be sincere and willing to accept what is given no matter what it is. You will know what it is when you see it, because it will be exactly what YOU need. It may be a burning bush, but it may be corndog sticks. What difference does it make , IF you know it's for you, and you alone?"

Your thoughts @formula1?

 

[BassMan31]

i will point out that Jesus himself lauded "blind" faith (not what I would call it, but to each his own).

that said, our faith is based on God and his Son who died for our sins. I did not see him die. I did not meet the Son in the corporeal sense. I have His word, which was also in the beginning. I believe God, always. that is the faith.

 

[BassMan31]

Folks use the words faith and religion in ways that I might not, and sometimes interchangeably with their own definitions. I'll try to define my simple definitions, in case others have may use these words differently.

Faith - believing something.
Hope - I think something can happen.

For the purpose of this discussion I believe there is a God. Creation is all around and it is not logical to me that there can be things made without a Maker. For me, it is not possible to believe things were created out of nothing. It makes no sense to me and I haven't seen or heard any evidence to convince me to doubt my belief.

I also believe God will do what he says he will do. This belief gets stronger as I get older, which is only natural as I have seen more evidence every year as I age. This isn't some strange, complicated mystical belief to me. I believe you will reap what you sow the same as I do that gravity exists today just like it did yesterday. Ignoring either one might not end well for me.

So for me, yes faith is based on evidence. Your level of faith would (or should) change throughout life, if you are observant and aware of what is going on around you.

"hope" in the bible refers to the belief God will do as he's promised. there's no probabilistic variance.

 

[formula1]

SemperFiDawg:

BTW, my son is a Marine!

Seek for Him, look for Him and you will find Him. For me, that means if you are serious about knowing Him, you will seek until you find Him! Can one who gives up the ‘seeking’ ever find Him? It is a lifetime affair

A man who truly seeks God is a driven man! He will not rest until the goal is reached, until he has found his Lord. The cost is irrelevant.

Matthew 13
44 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.”

45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, 46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

This scripture points to one captivated by something more wonderful than anything! Yet how did he get to that point?

John 3
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe thathe exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Everything begins in Christ with a little tiny mustard seed of belief! It grows because one buys the field, so to speak.

Does everyone have that living in them? Only God knows. But if He made the way of salvation for everyone, at least I choose to believe it exists in all!

I agree that it might be good for one to give up all of their preconceived notions. That would help. Yet sometimes your preconceptions, your ideas of God are the walls that keep you from Him! Sometimes your notions need to be viewed through His eyes. Perhaps a better view is for each one the road could be different yet perfect for his experience. Whatever the road, it seems to me to be somehow linked to coming to the end of yourself!

I read the story you speak of and I throughly enjoyed it! It is exactly what he needed. Now he sees, the specifics only matter to Him, and those details made a difference for him. I am convinced there are as many stories as people now in the sheepfold of Christ!

A pastor once told me this, “God will give you everything you need to be everything He wants!” That is a perfect, loving God interacting with His creation with each one’s purpose in mind. He knows exactly how to reach you and He pursues you to this end!

I don’t proclaim all the answers for each individual. But I know who I have believed in and He is able! 49 years ago i bought that field. A lifetime has convinced me it was the most valuable purchase of all! And it was free!

But don’t listen to me! Hear Him!

 

[SemperFiDawg]

SemperFiDawg:

BTW, my son is a Marine!

Seek for Him, look for Him and you will find Him. For me, that means if you are serious about knowing Him, you will seek until you find Him! Can one who gives up the ‘seeking’ ever find Him? It is a lifetime affair

A man who truly seeks God is a driven man! He will not rest until the goal is reached, until he has found his Lord. The cost is irrelevant.

Matthew 13
44 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.”

45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, 46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

This scripture points to one captivated by something more wonderful than anything! Yet how did he get to that point?

John 3
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe thathe exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Everything begins in Christ with a little tiny mustard seed of belief! It grows because one buys the field, so to speak.

Does everyone have that living in them? Only God knows. But if He made the way of salvation for everyone, at least I choose to believe it exists in all!

I agree that it might be good for one to give up all of their preconceived notions. That would help. Yet sometimes your preconceptions, your ideas of God are the walls that keep you from Him! Sometimes your notions need to be viewed through His eyes. Perhaps a better view is for each one the road could be different yet perfect for his experience. Whatever the road, it seems to me to be somehow linked to coming to the end of yourself!

I read the story you speak of and I throughly enjoyed it! It is exactly what he needed. Now he sees, the specifics only matter to Him, and those details made a difference for him. I am convinced there are as many stories as people now in the sheepfold of Christ!

A pastor once told me this, “God will give you everything you need to be everything He wants!” That is a perfect, loving God interacting with His creation with each one’s purpose in mind. He knows exactly how to reach you and He pursues you to this end!

I don’t proclaim all the answers for each individual. But I know who I have believed in and He is able! 49 years ago i bought that field. A lifetime has convinced me it was the most valuable purchase of all! And it was free!

But don’t listen to me! Hear Him!

As always, good stuff.

 

[Israel]

The man who has been (through an intervention) sat down to the greater power, a greater will, a greater wisdom, a greater knowing, even the greater working over him and to him, knows of encounter.

What comes of this will be his testimony. He may even be found in some confounding as he tries to work out in himself what has occurred. And there is no shortage of voices willing, even abetting any and all notion he "maneuvered himself" to that place and moment of intervention.

But he will find there, in all of encounter with these other voices, notions, wills, and prescriptions hold nothing of the power of what he now knows of true encounter. Of intervention. There is influence, surely. But nothing can either reach nor touch that depth of encounter.

All of what would seek to make itself real to him, by itself seeking to be made real among men, does not approach with what has been made known to him as, and of, I am.

And those who know this know this comes with no explanation, no reasonings, no plea for agreement nor even conceding to. I am supplies no reason for His being. He is reason of (even logos/word and logic) for all, and not supported in His being by the reasons nor reasonings of man.

And he is delivered from the logic of man that builds to, and instead enters into the all of what is built from. And he will find all the opposition necessary to his knowing that is appointed to assault those shakeable foundations of knowing (upon which he previously built) until he is persuaded the entrance into that all is as narrow as pronounced.

All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Man despises circular reasoning. It leaves him no place to elevate his mind.

But God is perfect.