Long term study about coyote effects on deer populations

[NCHillbilly]

Those are all three classic wolves. The red wolves they have for breeding stock at the WNC Nature center a few miles from here look just exactly like that first and last one. I see plenty of those and the black ones too on my place on the SC/GA line. Not as many black ones up here in the mountains, but scads of the big long-legged red ones. They reintroduced red wolves here in the GSMNP for awhile, and they were busy while they were here.

 

[blood on the ground]

Thank you for the information @NCHillbilly , @Nicodemus .

 

[Nicodemus]

Those are all three classic wolves. The red wolves they have for breeding stock at the WNC Nature center a few miles from here look just exactly like that first and last one. I see plenty of those and the black ones too on my place on the SC/GA line. Not as many black ones up here in the mountains, but scads of the big long-legged red ones. They reintroduced red wolves here in the GSMNP for awhile, and they were busy while they were here.

Ya`ll just got another registered male that was transported up there from St Vincent`s Island down here. For breeding purposes at the Nature Center. Just in the last week or two, I believe.

 

[blood on the ground]

You guys are full of knowledge! Thank you!

 

[Nicodemus]

You guys are full of knowledge! Thank you!

Thank you, but I have no higher schooling on this stuff. I`m just in the woods a lot, observing and remembering what I see.

And thanks to the generosity of good friends, I have an excellent classroom right outside my front door. A beautiful ecosystem of woods, swamp, and fields, with an abundance of everything that lives in South Georgia, both prey and predator.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

30 to 60 pounds, give or take. Coyotes don`t run in packs.

Nic, are you saying all the canines we hear and see in Georgia are already hybrids or are they just breeding that way?

 

[Nicodemus]

Nic, are you saying all the canines we hear and see in Georgia are already hybrids or are they just breeding that way?

I don`t know but what we have has all the characteristics that William Bartram described in the 1790s of the red wolf. I also have access to seeing the registered red wolves in the breeding program at Chehaw, up close, and I can`t tell the difference between them and what we have running wild here.

 

[blood on the ground]

Thank you, but I have no higher schooling on this stuff. I`m just in the woods a lot, observing and remembering what I see.

And thanks to the generosity of good friends, I have an excellent classroom right outside my front door. A beautiful ecosystem of woods, swamp, and fields, with an abundance of everything that lives in South Georgia, both prey and predator.

Fantastic! I'm happy for you but must admit... I'm jealous too!

 

[EAGLE EYE 444]

I don`t know but what we have has all the characteristics that William Bartram described in the 1790s of the red wolf. I also have access to seeing the registered red wolves in the breeding program at Chehaw, up close, and I can`t tell the difference between them and what we have running wild here.

NIC, YOU AND A COUPLE OF OTHERS SURELY GAVE ME AN EDUCATION ABOUT RED WOLVES BACK IN 2012 WHEN I TRAPPED ONE THAT WEIGHED 80 LBS BACK THEN.

SINCE BACK AT THAT TIME, I HAVE HAD AT LEAST 6 MORE "BLACK" YOTES AND/OR RED WOLVES ON MY TRAIL CAMERAS TOO AND EVERY ONE OF THEM HAD A "WHITE THROAT PATCH" ALSO.

It was also ironic that when you mentioned William Bartrams Trail back then, I was very familiar with it as it comes right through Lincoln County only about a mile or two from my property. I didn't realize what an explorer that he really was but thanks to you, I have read a lot more about his exploits back a few hundred years ago.

It has been amazing that so many have now been sighted during these past 8 years and it has been exciting to read more about them too. They surely seem to be more common these days.

For anybody that want to read about that one back in 2012, the link is: https://forum.gon.com/threads/black-coyote-finally-bit-the-dust.688757/


I should mention that in my original post back then, I included several photos that unfortunately were hosted by "photo-bucket" and they ultimately ruined those photos shown with my posts. They put their logo over them when I wouldn't pay them $399 per year for them to host my photos anymore.

Thankfully, I still have about 90 % of them on an external hard-drive however that I can go back and look at from time to time.

 

[buckpasser]

Speaking of firsthand knowledge, a drought year will make you a whole lot less appreciative of coyotes/coywolves. The summers of ‘07, ‘08, and ‘11 saw almost no fawn recruitment around these parts. I know the cover was less effective, the does were more stressed, etc., but the doggies went to work. In my opinion, my local area has only just recovered to pre-2007 deer numbers.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind the coyotes had a major impact for at least those few summers and we’d have all been better off without them in the ecosystem at that time.

 

[EAGLE EYE 444]

I am fortunate that I do have plenty of does and bucks roaming all over for the past several years now. I am covered up with coyotes and also bobcats as far as predators go and I am sure that the yotes have killed some of the young deer as I've seen a few remains of such. I learned a long time ago that you will NEVER HAVE ANOTHER FAWN IN THE WOODS WITHOUT A DOE...The fact is, I have not shot any does since way back in the early 90's and I didn't hunt at all from 2000 up until 2010 when I finally started using trail camera and started back hunting. It might seem hard to believe BUT I haven't shot but 5 bucks since 2010.

 

[Geno67]

If you want to see what a red wolf looks like go to St. Vincent's NWR off the coast of Apalachicola.

No one wants to admit it but the quail and rabbits all disappeared after we quit using DDT and made it a serious offence to shoot a hawk. I think it's two fold - the bottom fell out of fur around that time so people that could make beer money trapping couldn't even get new traps with what they were making and were working themselves to death for it and people quit shooting hawks every time they saw one.

 

[Back40hunter]

Quite an interesting thread, with lots of various opinions on the impact of predators. Personally try to have an informed opinion on these type matters. Reading articles and listening to wildlife professionals to gather information is very important for us all. Also, I’m not a big fan of the wholesale elimination of a species just to suit my personal preferences. There is such a thing as the balance of nature. But I can admit that there are species I prefer and work to enhance those over others. I have access to about 140 acres behind my house. I deer hunt this property. In the past 10 years there has been 4 mature bucks harvested off this property. Nothing else, no does or small bucks. Our hunting observations and trail cam data showed several deer using this property 5-10 years ago. Only an occasional coyote. However, in the last five years or so the pendulum has swung. With no other significant changes, no doe harvest, no EHD, no habitat loss, nothing negative happening but yet the deer sightings and camera pics have diminished. Really the only change has been and improvement to the habitat through establishment of food plots, but there has been no improvement to the herd. Even worse is that the herd has seemed to diminish. And during all this the one thing that has increased is the presence of coyotes. For each deer picture I get there may be 8-10 coyote pictures. I don’t really know if the deer can or will adapt to this level of presence or not. But what I do know is that this high level of predator presence has at the very least impacted deer movement and use on this property. For that reason I am of the opinion that I would like to remove a substantial number of these predators. Yes there has to be a balance, but what I’m seeing is an ecosystem that is skewed heavily towards the predators which for my purposes is not acceptable. We’ll never be rid of coyotes, they are too prolific compared to bears and bobcats. The bears and cats don’t pose a problem for me, but I’m feeling the effects of a high yote population and I will work to adjust that as best as I can.

 

[rugerfan]

Interesting debate. I have only ever seen 1 coyote or red wolf in the wild, It was running so fast and that I never even got a shot off on it.

As long as there is food to eat or hunt you will have coyotes or red wolves for that matter. Nature tends to take care of itself usually. Habitat loss is the big killer of deer populations. Nature's way is that the strong survive, the weak do not. Man is really the biggest predator that mostly defies natures process.

However I am on the same thinking as NC Hillbilly, let the does live. Let them have their young. There will still be plenty of bucks to harvest that way.

 

[280 Man]

Yea, you`ll never see a black coyote.

Are you being facetious? I know the pic is a little blurry but this is from Feb 8. Looks black to me! I pulled the card today. Were it's crossing is a shooting lane that I cut a few years ago. It runs a couple hundred yards. There will be a few traps in this area tomorrow!

 

[Lindseys Grandpa]

I got a black one hangs around my house. Shot at him running across yard at about 75yds with my pistol. Thought i might have hit him but he showed up on a trail camera couple weeks ago. I doubt he will return to yard, they are real smart. I think they have had a big impact on fox. I use to see several fox a year and i haven't seen one in woods in 5 years or more.

 

[NCHillbilly]

Nic, are you saying all the canines we hear and see in Georgia are already hybrids or are they just breeding that way?

Several studies done on eastern "coyotes" show that their DNA is almost always a mixture of coyote, wolf, and sometimes dog. Most of them in many areas are at least 25%-30% wolf, quite a bit more in some cases.

 

[NCHillbilly]

Are you being facetious? I know the pic is a little blurry but this is from Feb 8. Looks black to me! I pulled the card today. Were it's crossing is a shooting lane that I cut a few years ago. It runs a couple hundred yards. There will be a few traps in this area tomorrow!

View attachment 1002578

No, he's not being facetious. He's saying that true coyotes don't come in a black color phase. You'll never see one out west. What he's saying is that black coyote-like critter you are seeing isn't a coyote, it's a hybrid canid that's only part coyote. The color phases and significant size differences between our eastern hybrid canids and true coyotes out west come from the addition of wolf or dog DNA, not from the coyote side. The small native southeastern wolves were very commonly black.

 

[Nicodemus]

Are you being facetious? I know the pic is a little blurry but this is from Feb 8. Looks black to me! I pulled the card today. Were it's crossing is a shooting lane that I cut a few years ago. It runs a couple hundred yards. There will be a few traps in this area tomorrow!

View attachment 1002578

Good luck. if you want it, I hope you catch it.

 

[splatek]

Several studies done on eastern "coyotes" show that their DNA is almost always a mixture of coyote, wolf, and sometimes dog. Most of them in many areas are at least 25%-30% wolf, quite a bit more in some cases.

Again I ask: Do you have those studies in PDF form? I am not questioning you, just really curious to read the science... (as if I don't have enough to read already).

I do know that among canids black is a dominant and penetrant gene so crossed with another canid (dog or wolf) that carried that gene ought to result in black hybrids.

Regarding the main study (most issues dealt with in the reply paper), the use of harvest data seems inane, especially if, as I've seen on this forum someone suggest that the average actual reporting is somewhere around 65-75%. I'm no expert, but that's a ton of error variance. Isn't there a UGA study of NoGA deer/fawn recruitment study showing mortality associated with coyote predation?